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Madeline Davis and Liz Kennedy. Boots of Leather Oral History Project Panel Gay Pride, 1979
Side A:
Panel discussion on the history of the archives, including a brief introduction on how they gather information through different interview procedures within the Lesbian community in order to build the oral history project.
Side B:
Panel discussion continues with topic brought up in side A. -
Bonnie, June 9, 1984 (Tape 2)
Bonnie discusses rules of conduct within the lesbian community, including domestic violence, beginning and ending relationships, identifying as butch or femme, and domestic roles. Other topics include prostitution with women and men, bisexuality, definitions of lesbianism, types of relationships, and her rules of attraction. -
Andy, April 20, 1982 (Tape 2)
Andy further discusses how she came to construct her butch image. She recalls getting into fights with men and having to give up good jobs because she refused to give up her queer image and identity. She discusses her clash with a teacher when she was in school in the 1950s. She describes her relationship with a prostitute and other close relationships. On side B she talks about breaking into the butch scene and coming out. Andy talks about gay bars and places queer women were welcome or not. She discusses fashion and explains why they wore their t-shirts backward. -
Debra, February 20, 1980 (Tape 2)
Discusses her child, a son. He was the product of her one-day marriage. She kept him for about 8 months and then her brother and his wife took him and raised him. He would spend the summers with her until he was 12 and then he lived with her and spent the summers with her brother and his wife.
Believes lesbians make better mothers because they know more. She didn’t want her son to go into gay life because she felt it would be difficult for him, she doesn’t believe that gay men relationships last. She believes you can teach someone not to be gay.
They talk about gay men and lesbian relationships and social interactions. She would call upon her gay male friends to be her date to events that she needed a date, also sometimes family events. They talk about marriages between a gay man and gay woman. Debra says that she knew quite a few couples who had done that to put up a front, but that those relationships always worked out well. Debra also talks about marriage between two women. She never wanted to get married but knew women who did.
They also discuss alcoholism and drugs among the gay community.
On the second tape, Debra further discusses fights in the lesbian community. Madeline asks if she knew any lesbians who played sports in the 1940s and 1950s. Debra believes lesbians played sports but cannot definitely say so. -
Lou and Jane, November 8, 1981 (Tape 4)
Lou and Jane discuss what life is like as an interracial lesbian couple. They discuss how white "studs" feel threatened by black "studs", feeling they will steal their women. Alcoholism is briefly discussed. They also discuss having to tell lies to their family to prevent them from knowing about their sexuality.
On Side B- Jane begins with her experience as Fem lesbian, and her difficulty with what that means to her. She talks about her difficulty with coming "out", and then is interrupted by one of their children.
Lou discusses her relationship with her Fem partner (Jane), as someone who self-identifies as a Butch. She discusses her choices in life, and her commitment to her relationship, her partner, and her family. She also talks about her disillusionment with the future, and her lack of hope for change. Lou references Jane's feelings, and her hope for Jane to recognize what it means to be a Fem.
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DJ, January 6, 1980 (Tape 2)
DJ discusses her early experiences with women as a teenager, her feelings of being a tomboy, and her coming-out experience. She discusses her experiences in the bar scene in Buffalo in the 1950s, and describes ways in which women would interact with each other, but publicly and privately. DJ also discusses roles in relationships, particularly the butch and the femme. -
Debra, February 20, 1980 (Tape 1)
Debra discusses her experiences as a lesbian. She talks about her first lesbian relationship when she was 12, how she was married for one day, how her mother knew something was different about her, and how her sister figured out she was a lesbian because she was only married for one day.
She talks about her relationships with women, how she never openly acknowledged that she was gay but if she was asked she wouldn’t deny it.
They discuss monogamy, she was mostly faithful, but she also talks about jealous partners and how when one is accused of things, one might as well and go ahead and do it.
She doesn’t believe that a lesbian relationship is any different than a straight relationship.
They discuss bars and areas in Buffalo that she would frequent: Moon Glow bar, Pearls bar, Ralph Martins, Ryan’s Hotel, Little Harlem. They also discuss dating rituals, fashion, and relationship/ courting roles. -
Cheryl, October 4, 1978 (Tape 1)
Side A: Cheryl discusses her experiences and the stereotypes that were associated with lesbians in college when she first first came out.
Side B: Cheryl discusses her relationships, including sexual relationships and partnerships. She shares her experiences and opinions about affairs, and monogamous and non-monogamous relationships. Generational differences within the lesbian community are also discussed. -
DJ, January 6, 1980 (Tape 3)
Side A: DJ continues her interview from tape SPW513. She finishes discussing her romantic relationships then moves on to discuss gay literature, specifically The Well of Loneliness. The topic of workplace discrimination is mentioned. DJ discusses relationships in the community through the venue of gay and straight bars. Relationships between straight men, lesbians, and bisexual women are discussed as well as race relations. Side B: DJ covers the topic of prostitution in the lesbian community. She speaks about the choice some lesbians make to marry men and have kids. -
DJ, January 6, 1980 (Tape 1)
DJ discusses the time she went to the hospital and was diagnosed as a homosexual. She remembers that the doctor suggested she try going out with a man to determine the extent of her feelings toward women. She also recalls that the doctor told her she must learn to live with society and to control her emotions in public. -
Bonnie, June 9, 1984 (Tape 1)
Bonnie discusses the lesbian community in which she came out and lived during the 1960s. She describes the difference of experience for butch and femme lesbians in public during this time, the roles butches and femmes play within relationships, and the social expectations involved. Other topics include Bonnie's lesbian mother, alcoholism, lesbian bars, Bonnie becoming actively gay at Catholic school, her way of flirting, and monogamy and infidelity within the lesbian community. -
Anita, undated (Tape 2)
Anita talks about being in an interracial relationship with a white woman, and the roles of butch and femme. -
Anita, November 16, 1978 (Tape 1)
Anita talks about her first encounters with a relationship with a woman. She then speaks about the difficulties of raising her child. She also talks about the roles of Butch and Femme. -
Portia, September 24, 1978 (Tape 1)
The gay movement has taken the lesbian community out of the bars or the "gay underworld," as compared to when she came out in the late 1960s, about 10 years prior to the interview. Portia, age 26, is not out at her job, but is known as a feminist and civil rights activist; her sister is openly homosexual. She talks about her early sexual experiences with girls and how she never felt guilty or different, but felt guilty with boys because of her Catholic upbringing. Her father beat Portia after she went out with her lover, and then she moved out of home at 18. She attended university and discusses her relationships and friendships in college, as well as her relationship with her first lover, who is still her partner, and their infidelities. -
Bobbie, June 30, 1984 (Tape 2)
Bobbie speaks on the nature of her various relationships, including patterns of sex and cohabitation, being confused about her significant other identifying as a man in public, she addresses the existence of her children, using men after prison to live and make money, attending gay reorientation church, her sexual practices, and the subject of the "Untouchable". -
Bobbie, June 30, 1984 (Tape 1)
She thinks people have the wrong opinion of lesbians, she says she feels alone in the bars, role playing was important that someone should be the more aggressive person in a relationship, talks about how she needs a butch in a relationship, thought of herself as a femme although she didn't dress feminine, describes a "dyke person", bar atmosphere and how she went to a bar every night to hit on the bartender, how much she enjoyed the bar scenes, prostitution, story about how she was abducted and raped by 3 men, about how she was in an abusive relationship, spending time in a correctional facility, sexual relationships while in jail -
Carol, October 17, 1978
Bad sound quality. Discusses that she doesn't think of her community of a lesbian community, though she can contribute to the lesbian community. Says she now stays away from gay bar communities because she is a teacher. Discusses running into students at bars, relationships, family. -
Buff, September 23, 1979
Talks about dating a prostitute, lesbian prostitutes, lesbians and butches having sex with men, lesbian pregnancy, clothing styles, -
Elaine, June 28, 1982 (Tape 2)
Discussion on early childhood, being Canadian but growing up on an Indian Reservation near Syracuse. Also discusses being the head of a black gang, her relationship with her mother and abusive stepfather, and the jail time she spent for his murder, finding work (while hiding she was gay) and relationships. -
Elaine, April 17, 1980 (Tape 1)
Discussion centers on bars in Buffalo in the late 1950s and into the 1960s, in particular Bingo -
Enit, October 3, 1978 (Tape 2)
Enit discusses how her perception of Lesbian oppression has changed over time. She also talks about acceptance in the work place and how professionals view Lesbians. Enit explains that her personal interests have changed with age and that her hobby is dance. She finishes by discussing her interactions with straight women and the support she gets from her Lesbian friends. -
Enit, October 3, 1978 (Tape 1)
Enit discusses facing her sexuality at the age of 12 and coming out to her family despite her frustration at their lack of acceptance. She goes on to discuss her social life and dating in Buffalo, NY, noting how she used to meet women at bars but that her social activities have changed with age. She discusses her participation in the Erie Picnics held for gay men and women in Pennsylvania. She is 47 at the time of the interview. -
Pat, June 6, 1978 (Tape 1)
Side A: Pat discusses her definition of lesbianism and her attitude towards “radical lesbians.” She also discusses her background, including her relationship with her family and her experience at an all-girls Catholic school. She talks about how and when she realized she was a lesbian and describes her early relationships with women. She discusses leaving home and experiencing gay bars for the first time in the 1950s. Finally, she discusses butch and femme roles and how they have changed.
Side B: Pat discusses why she does not have many gay friends and why she does not identify with the lesbian community. She talks about her relationships and her feelings about sex. -
Phil, January 9, 1980
Side 3: Phil begins the interview by discussing the dynamics of living with her lover and husband under the same roof, as well her lack of shame or guilt in being gay. She then talks about guilt among other lesbians she knew. Related to this, she discusses reasons people were not public about their lesbian identity, including work and family commitments. She spends the majority of this side of the tape talking about her long-term, intimate relationship with her best friend. She discusses the difference between butch and femme friends, as well as the distinct features of a close friend versus a lover. -
Joe, April 18, 1979 (Tape 2)
Joe offers suggestions for local history sources, research materials, and other interview subjects. He also shares anecdotes of his travels to San Francisco. -
Joan with Donna and Doris, April, 1978
Joan talks about how she went to jail and her experiences while she was held there. -
Joan, September 11, 1978 (Tape 2)
Joan discusses permanent relationships and other lesbians' relationships, dating process, how she and others approach lesbians they are interested in, and terminologies in dating (example: when do you start "going" with someone, and is it actually called "going"?). She identifies herself first as a lesbian, second as an African American. She talks about racism in the white lesbian community and the acceptance of black lesbians in black communities, which she says has to do with class. She talks about the black movement and gay/women's liberation in Buffalo. She describes how she's dressed. -
Pat and DJ, November 11, 1986 (Tape 3)
Side A: Pat and DJ discuss the characteristics of femme identity. The interviewers say they are looking to interview more femmes, which leads to a discussion of the names and locations of lesbians who were a part of the community in the 1940s. The interviewers also mention the difficulties of interviewing lesbians who have not come out. The group discusses why butches are more willing to talk. Pat talks about her time at the Good Shepherd home. There is a brief discussion about the role of lesbians in World War II.
Cut off at 0:14:55
Side B: The group continues their discussion of the interview process, including who is willing to talk and who is not, as well as who will use their names and who will not. There is more discussion about beatings. Pat tells of coming out to her mother. Her mother only worries about the violence Pat is subjected to, on account of being butch. There is a long discussion about the nature of breakups and their aftermath. The group discusses the role of third parties in most breakups and the way a butch or femme reacts to a breakup. The issue of "passing" comes up, and Pat talks about working as a cab driver and passing as a man. Often, the children of femmes did not know that their mothers' partners were actually women. The interview concludes with a description of the rules for asking other butches' girlfriends to dance, and the fights that sometimes ensued. This point in the discussion highlights the difference between the generation of the interviewees and the generation of the interviewers. -
Pat and DJ, November 11, 1986 (Tape 2)
Side A: Pat and DJ continue the discussion of relationships during the 1950s from tape cassette SPW457. The two women discuss aspects of how to make relationships long-lasting and the importance or lack thereof of sexual intimacy in relationships. Both Pat and DJ discuss personal opinions related to intimacy in relationships, particularly in long-term relationships. The discussion then turns to types of attraction and intimacy.
Side B: Pat and DJ continue to discuss relationships during the 1950s and talk about reasons for breaking up. The discussion revolves around the importance of taking care of a woman and being able to satisfy her needs. The two women discuss the negative stigma of cheating. The discussion turns to take pride in a partner and the importance of her appearance and physical presence. Pat and DJ also talk about the presence of violence during relationships in the 1950s, listing insecurity between partners as the main reason. The two women speak specifically of violence in bars as a result of talking to another woman’s lady or challenging femmes in relationships to talk to other women. They discuss how much of this behavior was learned from lesbian role models of the 1940s. -
Paula, January 18, 1990 (Tape 1)
Side A: Paula describes various locations where gay men and women would meet each other, like Kleinman's Corner and bars such as Ralph Martin's. Often these locations also served as hubs for sex workers. She speaks about the rigidly defined roles of "butch" and "femme" provided for lesbians during the 1940s. Paula talks about her life as femme and being married to a man who introduced her to gay/lesbian life. She discusses her sexual life and the type of sex that women had with each other in the 1940s, specifically within the strict binary of butch and femme. Paula recalls the social life at bars, such as Ralph Martin's, which included dancing, drag shows, prostitution, and drugs.
Side B: Paula speaks about her family life in relation to her sexual identity. She talks about her husband's fast lifestyle and her changing preferences eventually causing the dissolution of their marriage. Paula mentions the types of employment she has had, including working in department stores, as a waitress, as a desk clerk at the Genesee Hotel, and on the assembly line at Bell Aircraft. She speaks more about various bars that she went to: Pat's, Dugan's, the Carousel, and the Carlton Hotel. She talks about a long-term relationship that she had, after her divorce, that lasted ten years, as well as traveling out of the Buffalo area to places like Florida, California, and Utica, N.Y.
The recording cuts off abruptly after 23 minutes. -
Pat, June 6, 1978 (Tape 2)
Side A: Pat talks about her childhood in North Port, N.Y., her relationship with her parents and siblings. She goes into detail about her estranged relationship with her older sister. She describes when she first knew that she was a lesbian and tells the history of her relationships with women. She starts with her first affair at age 13, with a nun from her Catholic school - Sister Eugenie - to a relationship she had with Maryann (Marty). She describes her time at nursing school in Niagara Falls, N.Y., and the gay bars she frequented until she moved to Florida with her then girlfriend. She says she moved to Buffalo, N.Y., in the late 1950s, and describes the Buffalo bar scene, mentioning Dingles, Mardi Gras, the Chesterfield, the Carousel and the Carol Hotel. Pat mentions that the Carousel was very elite, something she did not like. This leads her into a discussion on “role play†and how important it was to distinguish oneself as either a butch or a femme. She classified herself as butch, but stated that she was very uncomfortable with the label and now prefers to be less overt.
Side B: In this interview Pat talks about how she does not like or feel comfortable in the gay community. She has never identified with it, or been made to feel welcome. This is one of the reasons that she does not maintain friendships with other lesbians, unless she is having a sexual relationship with them. She mentions being victimized and physically assaulted because she was a butch lesbian. Interviewer Madeline enters the discussion, speaking about her own sexual experiences with women. Madeline classifies Pat as “untouchable,†something that Pat denies, stating that she is simply very private. She feels that sex is a necessary but not important part of a relationship; it is something that is never sought or welcomed. She is suspicious of those who claim to experience sexual pleasure, including Madeline. -
Pat and DJ, November 11, 1986 (Tape 1)
Side A: Liz and Madeline ask Pat and DJ for feedback on a draft of "Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold." Pat claims the book paints too rosy a picture of lesbian life, underplaying the prejudice most lesbians encountered in the 1940s and '50s. Both talk about the Buffalo bar scene in the 1940s and '50s: mentioned are Carousel, Bingo's, the Chesterfield, Ralph Martin's, the Mardi Gras, and the Midtown. The discussion shifts to relationships, faithfulness, and prostitutes.
Recording has loud feedback sounds and squeaks at the beginning.
Side B: Pat and DJ discuss bar denizens vs. lesbians who did not frequent bars and the "class" distinction there, and also the way non-butch lesbians looked down on butches. DJ describes how her long-term relationships were analogous to marriage, where she was the breadwinner and her partners were housewives who perhaps worked but did not "provide." Both discuss the fact that in the 1940s and '50s butches had the freedom to have affairs whereas femmes were expected to be faithful. This created an atmosphere of mistrust in which monogamous long-term relationships became very difficult.
Recording has loud squeaks at the beginning, hisses throughout, and cuts off abruptly at the end. -
Joan, September 11, 1978 (Tape 1)
Side A: Joan discusses the distinction between butch and femme lesbians, the differences between the white and black gay communities, the Buffalo lesbian bar scene, and coming out in the 1960s.
Side B: Joan discusses the class divisions in the lesbian community, the university gay scene, and her personal, professional, and romantic history. -
Joe, April 18, 1979 (Tape 1)
Side A: Joe talks about the social atmosphere in the 1920s through the 1940s. He talks about Service Clubs and Music Circles as vehicles for social interaction but claims not to know of any exclusively gay or lesbian social groups. He also talks about the one gay bar in town in the 1930s and '40s and calls it "middle class at best."
Side B: Joe talks about social clubs (all men's clubs) and how gay society functioned within these clubs. He also talked about sports and gay women at the time.