Text
Alaina Zulli
This is Alaina Zulli interviewing [redacted] goes by [redacted] on May 31 2007,
in Bobst library. Okay, so [redacted], let's start with your background. Tell me
where you were born. Then about your family.
Anonymous
Excuse me, I was born in New York City, Beth Israel hospital. I am the last born
out of four children, two boys, two girls. My mom is a single, single mother.
Unfortunately my dad was at the time I was born children. My dad,
unfortunately my my father was killed in some kind of confrontation with
somebody. So I never really knew my dad. I have a stepfather who raised us
who I kind of recognise as my dad because he's the only father figure I've
known. And we grew up in Brooklyn, Park Slope, excellent neighbourhood.
Should have stayed there. Guess that kind of answers a lot. And I, I mainly
grew up with just my sister, just me and my sister. My two brothers were
actually raised with my grandmother. I believe my mom probably had them
when she was really young. So they grew up with my grandmother. It was cool
like, we, we lived in a household where it was just the four of us. Unfortunately,
my mom has a my mom has a mental condition. She's diagnosed as being
schizophrenic. So that was a little weird sometimes, you know, my mom was
kind of always in and out of hospital. I actually when I was born, I was born
with what's called CAH, it stands for congenital adrenal hyperplasia. It actually
means I'm missing an enzyme in my body, my Adrenaline gland doesn't
produce a certain enzyme. And I was actually also born with ambiguous
genitalia. Which, as most people know, my sometimes I think about it when I
was born, you know, most babies when they're born, they like you have a you
have a girl you have a boy, I picture when I was born, it's like you have a Okay.
Wait a minute, give us a second, we'll get back to you. So, unfortunately, I I was
always in and out of the hospital myself, you know, young kind of went
through a series of reconstructive surgeries, which I think also kind of answers
a lot in terms of my sexual orientation. You know, being being a lesbian, being
Butch, you know, based on just my overall appearance, you know, I have
unfortunate have higher testosterone levels, which gives me a more
androgynous Look, when people could kind of think that, you know, I'm a
female, but I'm not quite sure.
Alaina Zulli
Well, you have facial hair, which to many people is a clear indication.
Anonymous
Yeah, I mean, but nowadays with so many you know, transgender people, like
some people not too sure whether it's facial hair due to you know, hormones,
right. And, you know, the whole transition over
AZ
So were you raised as a girl or a boy?
Anonymous
I was raised as a girl as a girl, my mom put [compensated?] little dresses on
me and, and stuff, but I think what was unique about my mom was that she, I
think, because I was born with this condition she didn’t really enforce a lot of
like, she didn't, when we went out, I if it was a family event, she put a dress on
me. But really, I played with I played with cars, Star Wars figures, action figures,
I never really had dolls, like my sister was more though, the doll and makeup
type, you know, I played with cars, trucks, I was very active. You know, I would, I
was always jumping around, you know, just like a little boy, I was jumping
around. All my friends were boys. I really never had any little girls as friends. So
I think my mom kind of, you know, growing up, which was, I guess, good. She
never enforced it on me. You know, except for family events. You know? So
that was I think that was really good. In terms of, you know, my upbringing, I
wasn’t a kind of, you know, forced to be this little girl. I just grew up as a
regular child, you know, just enjoying the everyday life of just being a child
AZ
Let you find yourself and just be yourself.
Anonymous
Yeah, I it's funny because I look back and I know you know, people I always ask
about, you know, when when's the first time you realise you a lesbian. And I
think back and I had to be like seven years old, in the second grade, like, I
used to have a crush on my second grade teacher. And I used to follow her
everywhere, like, you know, when the kids would go to lunch, and I never had
to go to lunch with the kids like I would, she would, I would have lunch with her.
She would take me rollerskating on the weekends. And I slept over her house
one time, but you know, I'm seven years old, and I'm thinking like, yes, sleeping
with this older woman. You know, and then, of course, you know, not every now
and then her boyfriend would tag along, and I will kind of get mad at him, you
know, go rollerskating. And I would kind of knock him down because I didn't
want him to be around. And then she got married, she announced to the class
that she was getting married. And she invited the whole class to her wedding.
And I refused to go. I was so upset. I was devastated. I was like, Oh, my God, I
just lost this woman in my life. And, you know, my mom kind of was trying to
force me to go and I was like, oh, no, no. So I kind of, I always think back and I
was like, wow, like, that was my first like, experience with, you know, like, loving,
not well, not loving, but you know, like, being attracted to another woman.
AZ
Sure. Yeah.
Anonymous
And I guess from Park Slope, we move to the Lower East Side, which was pretty
bad. It wasn't that bad. You know, we still should’ve stayed in Park Slope.
AZ
Give me a timeframe for when you moved.
Anonymous
We moved when I was about 11 years old. Okay. So, at 11 we moved because
the building that we lived in was being sold. And so my mom just decided, you
know, we should move. So we wound up moving to the lower Eastside in
Manhattan, and it was good there. It was, I think it was also another confusing
time, because there I kind of developed more female friends. You know, like, I
even though I still kind of did boyish things. I had, I started having my female
friends like my best friend. From that moment on she, you know, we were
close. You know, I kind of really didn't look at her in a way that was like, you
know, why I'm attracted to girls. But all her other friends I did. And her sister.
AZ
All the other male friends you mean. Wait, you mean all your male friends
looked over that way?
Anonymous
No, I looked at her other female friends. Like, you know, like, hey, what’s up.
And it was just weird because she would always get me because we were
best friends. I she would always kind of duped me into like, you know, going
out with a guy. Which was, you know, also as confusing because I used to
think, well, well, this is what girls are supposed to do. Like dating. Yeah, like
dating. Like, she wouldn't be interested in some guy. And of course, his friend
would be there. So it's kind of like, you know why I want to be with him. So you
got to be with him. And I kind of felt you know, I think I made a lot of sacrifices
for my friend kind of like going in and just, you know, dating these these guys.
And I guess it wasn't really until I was probably 13. There use there used to be a
military Cadet that was ran by the center precinct. And my brothers actually,
when they were younger, they used to go there. And I wanted to go so they
finally at one point, they kind of banned girls from being there, I guess
because of some altercation, but they started letting them back in. And I went,
and it was awesome. Because there I met this young woman. I don't know if
I've mentioned her name.
AZ
Well, you can you can choose not to have her name ever. Really?
Anonymous
Well, her name was Selena. And she, you know, she then became my kind of,
like, secret gay friend. You know, we both came out to each other, which was
cool. You know, like, I was like, you know, I you know, when you're young you
kind of feel like you know about you've heard terms, you know, lesbian and
gay. But you never really impact impacts you until you actually meet you
know, somebody that's just like you just like everybody kind of feel like you're
alone until you meet somebody. And we came out to each other then we
started discovering that there was other, you know, lesbians and actually
bisexuals at the time. And in our cadet, you know, which was cool because I
felt like you know, not only was I interested in this kind of military cadet, but
you know, it was also surrounded by, you know, my people, my kind of
discovering a whole new community. And I remember when we, we got on our
bikes one weekend and we kind of went kind of girl hunting. You know, we
were like 13, 14 years old. And we we got on our bikes and we went to it was
about this time, and we ran into all these gay people, like right around here
actually around Washington Square Park, it was we kind of got lost, we didn't
know we were going. We just We just heard that, you know, there are, you
know, gay people in the village. So we, you know, ventured out into the village
to go look for, you know, gay people. And girls. And we had just missed the
Pride Parade. Hmm. You know, so when you would, you know, we're riding our
bikes, and we see like, you know, drones of like women, you know, and girls
and other like, we at first we didn't know what what it was until we actually
saw what gave it away is we saw some butch women so like, oh, yeah, we
found, we found our Mecca. And we had, we said, Hold this, this has got to be,
you know, there are a bunch girls. So that means there's got to be, you know,
you know, girls that we like femme girls around here. So we proceeded to dry
it, you know, to ride around on our bikes. And we found these, we found these
two girls who were 19 years old, of course, we lied about our age, we said we're
like 17 years old. And we, you know, proceeded to like kind of walk with them,
you know, hitting on them, and, you know, just kind of asking questions. And
after that just became our new, a new hangout spot. And from there, you
know, as I started going to cadets so I was going to I started going from my
timetable was a little screwed up
AZ
That’s ok. When you, if you can clarify. What your age, there abouts
Anonymous
Um, I would say like about between 15 and 16 is when like I started discovering
the village. And you know, we me and my friends then found out about
because I didn't realise that she was part of a youth group, which was called
Project Reach. And in the youth group, they dealt with social issues that was
like kind of my first interaction with a socialisation group where they spoke
about not only lesbian and gay issues, but issues around sexism and
homophobia, and, you know, classes and as well. So I learned a lot going
there just also, once again, just being around, you know, even tighter
community where people that are more of my age rather than me trying to
perpetrate and, you know, oh, they're lesbian trying to pick up all the women.
And from there we we started interacting with our Hetrick Martin Hetrick Martin
Institute, which is actually located here on Astor Place. It's probably one of the
largest gay and lesbian youth groups. It's also located the Harvey Milk schools
there also
AZ
Oh I think I've seen that. Yeah, can you? Well, later, you’ll have to write that for
me. But Hetrick Martin
Anonymous
At first, they were located by the West Side Highway, but where what people
call the pier. Yes. So they were located there. So project reach was actually
interacting with other youth groups. So once again, my community and I
started seeing that this community is a lot larger. And then we started doing
work with the yes group for Richmond services, which is part of the gay and
lesbian center. So we started doing going over there and networking. And
once I got to the center, I was just, like, amazed, like a whole building just
dedicated for us. And we, that became our new hangout spot. You know, so
about, like, 17 going into 16 going into 17 that became a new, a new hangout
spot, which was actually the corner of 13th Street and Seventh Avenue
AZ
Place. I know
Anonymous
Yeah, yeah. So we used to all kind of that would be the meeting spot. So one
person would like 2 people would get there and then you would wait for the
rest of us, you know, the rest of the people so probably like about six seven
o'clock there was about close to 20 young people there lesbian young people
AZ
And you just stand around on the corner
Anonymous
Yeah, we would all meet up at the corner and then decide what we're gonna
do, which always resulted in ending up at the pier. So we would track down,
walk down Seventh Avenue, till we got to the beginning of Christopher Street.
And of course, it would take us like two hours just to walk down the block.
Because we would stop and see people we know. And stop at stores, you
know, and, of course, it was all about fashion, even when I was younger, you
know, we used to stop and look at the stores and the clothing. You know,
because back then there used to be a lot of, I think it happens now. But
unfortunately, I'm kind of out of the loop, there used to be a lot of one was
called balls, balls. Yeah, they were basically many fashion shows that there
was small communities or houses that were ran by, you know, kind of, they
had mothers, which were predominantly like gay men, and by House fathers,
which was sometimes, you know, the butcher, lesbians, or sometimes they
would just be a gay. Another gay gentleman that was, I guess, a little bit more
butcher than the mother. And they would hold these balls, these kind of, kind
of mini fashion shows, and people would walk, like literally walk down this
catwalk for different categories. So some would run down, some would walk
for categories that we would call face, which will cover like you had a girl face.
So some of the most feminine gay boys would walk for that category, or they
had what was called boy realness. And some of the butch women would
actually walk in the whole thing was about passing. It was like, we had our
own little kind of fashion Yeah, show, which I don't know if you've ever seen the
movie. And you may want to pick it up, it's called Paris is burning.
Paris is burning actually talks about the beginnings of the whole ball thing
happened like in the early like, 80s. And, I don't know, if you've also ever seen
that show America's Top Model, Tyra Banks, yeah, she actually has a
gentleman in there, his name is Willi
Ninja. And his house was actually called the House of Ninja. And he was the
head mother, and they, he actually teaches these these models how to walk,
how to walk down the runway. So, we would go to these different balls
whenever we found out and we would go in and we would cheer for different
people that will walk different different categories. And, you know, we will go
shopping with some people because, you know, you needed to have the
latest and greatest clothes. And I think the probably I used to have the most
fun when I used to go with the, with the boys, the Gay Boys, because they went
by, you know, they would buy these extravagant, you know, dresses, and they
would so funny, they would, they would buy them and keep the tabs on them,
you know, because it was so expensive. Yeah. And then they would use it in a
ball and then have it dry cleaned, and then return the return the dress
AZ
So would they buy, like down in Soho, they would get designer clothes
Anonymous
They would get either in Soho, depending on how much money they had, you
know, like you know, depending on where were they unfortunately, some of
them were street workers. So they would get money that way some of them
sold drugs, you know. So, a lot of lots of times I would also go to we would go
and go to different thrift shops and kind of put together these ensembles of
different clothes. Which weren’t bad, you know, you could find like really hot
clothes in a thrift store and still look still a good like I love thrift stores. And so
we would go and go to these different ball scenes and stuff. And it was it was
awesome
AZ
That's this is fascinating. Okay, so tell me more about the houses. Was it like
those shelters?
Anonymous
No, no, no, they were just like groups
AZ
They were just like social groups
Anonymous
Yeah, they were just social groups. So you were associated like, you know
each house was known for different you know, they will have these you will go
to these balls. And they will be like, you know, like the top winners. You know,
they would kind of make their own houses. So they were like the best and in
their in you know, whatever category they were. And it was like, you know, I
want to call them almost like gay gangs. Yeah, you know, where you will
belong to a specific house right they have the house of ninja they have the
house of Pandora's, they have the house extravaganza. And, you know, there
was all these people that were part of it. Matter of fact, if you ever seen
Madonna's blonde Blonde Ambition tour, where she did the the whole voguing
thing there. And there's three gentlemen that she actually has in there that
were part of those houses and Madonna herself would actually sometimes
appear at these mini balls, you know, which sometimes would be held at, I
been to 2 of them one time that were held at the sound factory. Back then the
rumor was that Madonna actually owned the part of the sound factory Junior
Vasquez which was a famous DJ and still is used to DJ there. And she would
come and that's actually where she found some of her dancers from this from
this ball scene, and they would go now back then there was this whole
voguing kind of scene. You know which people were done in in the houses
AZ
Can you explain voguing?
Anonymous
Voguing is a dance style that originated I think originated out of the ball
scene. And it could be anything from like, like hand gestures to the way they
move, you know, the way they move their hands and they the way they would
pose. Voguing actually came out of there and then people would do these
moves these dance moves that were just kind of like voguing is a is a is I think
a cross between dancing and posing. And it's kind of a little hard to explain it
where it's easier to see. Unfortunately, I'm butch so I don’t know how to vogue
voguing was more voguing was more you know, kind of like the gay guys
then. So I didn't unfortunately, I didn’t kind of I'm really bad at it. I tried the one
time terrible. But it was it was nice. Like, you know, I really think that that's
where my thing of fashion came from. You know, being around the gay young
people and everything, everything was about fashion. Everything was about
fashion like back then we used to call it used to be called labels. And there
was even a category for that you even walked for you walk down this runway
for you know, your category that you were walking for was called labels. And it
was about who had the best clothes on the most the most expensive clothes
or even you know the most of the time it kind of fell in the category of the
most expensive clothes or even the somebody would get a Louis Vuitton you
know shirt or something or Versace pants you know, I don't I'm not too sure
how big bootlegging was back then and they actually really weren't Yeah,
these designer these designer clothes but the most of the time they were you
know, but it was it was good. You know that actually from there I wanted to
actually apply for fashion industries High School. I was the only person in my
junior high school actually got accepted to fashion industries. I actually went
in for merchandising someone to design in I wanted to design like a Windows
like displays. And that that became also because a movie mannequin where
he you know, created these extravagant window displays. And I could always
remember a few of my friends going and just seeing you know, the Macy's
windows, Bloomingdale's, Windows, or even the way that display the way the
clothes are put together. Unfortunately, they work too well with me. I got into a
lot of fights
AZ
At the school itself?
Anonymous
In fashion industries. Yeah. I think you know, because, because I'm
androgynous I used to always get, you know, are you a girl or are you a boy
and guys, of course, you know, didn’t like, the fact that I think that they didn't
know, or, you know, if they figured out I was a (barrow?) it was like, Oh, well,
you know, she's a lesbian, she Butch, you know, so that became a problem. So
my mom transferred me out of the school and kind of put me in my zone
school, which happened to be two blocks away, which was through a part of
high school
AZ
And this was in the Lower East Side
Anonymous
Yes, the Lower East Side. It was literally three blocks away from my house,
which sucks because I could never cut class without getting caught. And that
school was good. I remember being there. And I remember there used to be
this one young woman that stood out she kind of stood to herself. And to this
day, like I kinda see her but really, I know her because of who she is. You know,
in terms of knowing somebody from school, but not really kind of creating a
relationship with them. Her name was Lee, and she was like, she made me
look femme so much. Like she was like Butch all the way. And I can remember
like seeing her, like, get a lot of, you know, like a lot of shit in school. Because,
you know, sexuality and just the way she looked like she had her head shaved,
which, back then I guess really wasn't acceptable for young women, you
know. And she's got a lot of us and I used to feel so bad. And, you know, I used
to always want to kind of rate reach out, but I always felt, the whole safety
thing where I kind of didn't want to put myself in that position because I just
felt like I got a lot of shit for just looking where I was. And I didn't even have a
shaved head. And I didn't really be as butch she was, you know, they kind of
just associated with me being Butch because the way I dressed I didn't dress
feminine. I dressed in jeans, sneakers, you know t-shirt.
AZ
What was your hair like?
Anonymous
My hair was short, kind of the way it is now. And then I like as fashion started
changing, I let my hair grow. I kind of had this Steven Seagal type haircut
going on with a, I had a ponytail that kind of grew back. And I think a lot of that
happened because my friend started growing her hair that way. And since we
were so tight, we kind of brought it the same the same way. And we we just
continued going in the village and I remember there was a prom. They had a
prom. Unfortunately, when I graduated high school, I couldn't attend my prom.
I mean, I could have but there was the whole thing on you know, being stared
at what was I going to wear? You know, like, can I go there wearing a tuxedo
and have to get shit about it? Or do I have to wear a dress?
AZ
Were there any official rules about it?
Anonymous
There wasn’t. I mean, I think that never really is because I don't think they can
enforce it
AZ
They do it in some states. But I don't know of any…
Anonymous
In terms of the girls having to dress?
AZ
Like a girl can’t go with a girl basically
Anonymous
I don't think I was worried about bringing anybody. If I would have went I
probably would have went with my with my friend Josephine, which was my
best friend that used to make me date boys, who was kind of devastated
after she found out that I started you know, being with girls, and she used to
always taunt me with Madonna used to have the song, La Isla Bonita. And in
the song she talks about when a girl loves a boy and a boy loves a girl. So my
friend used to, you know, every time that part came, like emphasize it. She will
look at me and go when a girl loves a boy and a boy loves a girl.
AZ
After you came out to her?
Anonymous
After I came out. But um, she I think she was just doing that because she was
just teasing me. You know, like she was really cool I didn’t unlike, unlike most
people's experiences, and I'd say mine coming out was a little not kind of
lucky. But it wasn't that hard. My mom kind of found out because she read my
diary, which I actually left my diary in a car. And one of her friends found it
and gave it to her. So I was a little awkward
AZ
How old were you?
Anonymous
17 when she found out but I think you know mom's always know. Yeah, you
know, so. I don't put dresses. I don't put dresses on there nothing feminine
about me. You know, I don't bring guys home. You know, I never talk about
boyfriends. So, you know, she just kind of did her own little you know, when she
when I came in the house, she kind of just not threw it at me she kind of just
like tossed it. And and I can remember when she tossed it because she she
made this comment like she said she said cheers to your night in heaven or
something, because unfortunately it was talked about my first sexual
experience in in the, in my diary. I was just kind of like frozen when she when
she said it and that was kind of the only thing she said after that, like we never
she never you know, we didn't sit down and talk about it. You know, it was just
kind of like that was a one little comment and life just kind of went on. Which I
don't know if it was a good thing, but it seemed to work itself now. Yeah. That's
the I think I got a little scattered there, timeline.
AZ
Tell me more about what when you were talking about the balls. You
mentioned what the boys wore. The girls I mean, were the girls involved with it
Anonymous
Yes, yes, the girls were and the girls it, I think what was funny is when the kind
of femme girls would go against the femme guys for the same category, you
know, because they had a girl realness and even femmes would walk for this
category, you know, competing against, like these very feminine gay boys.
And I think the funniest thing was when the boys used to win. Right? And the
same thing with like, see the, I think the whole bunch femme thing is is an
attitude, or I think I want to say attitude, you know, or kind of I think it's attitude
because I think I kind of, you know, put out this kind of very rough attitudes
sometimes, you know, not so much frail or even then ethical being
stereotypically feminine, women are frail as well.
AZ
No but feminine does usually imply frailty culturally. So there were say butch
women walking in these balls?
Anonymous
Yeah we would walk like I would walk for boy realness. And I would sometimes
go against like you know the kind of like butch gay boys. You know and it was
almost the same thing like you know like here is a butch woman you know
winning this category you know that was kind of like actual like you are a boy
and you can’t win it like what’s up with that. And then after that it kind of faded
like you know the the butch boys after that didn’t really walk for realness they
kind of they kind of excuse me. A new category started coming out so then
they had like b boy realness. Or and b boy realness was all about you know a
straight boy passing as a I mean a gay boy walking this category trying to act
straight. Like he would act thug. You know so he would have the baggy
clothes on and you know the Tommy Hilfiger hoody you know the hat and he
would walk and try to pass as a straight boy. And it’s funny because he’s
walking for this category that he wins and then you see the gay boy kind of
come out and they it was just fun. Like the different then it started after a while
it started getting boring because like new categories and things started
coming out and then you know there started to be a lot of animosity amongst
you know people you know and then it started becoming a thing where
people then started fighting like you know you would go to a ball and I can
remember like towards the end when I stopped going like I went half the time
to kind of watch my friend’s back. Because it, a fight always broke out
AZ
Over who won?
Anonymous
Over who won or a disagreement about who won or you know it started
coming about you know like things that kinds you know fight about. Like oh
well you aint wearing real labels like your labels aint real. You know like your
wearing bootleg clothing. Or you know, because it was such a tight
community sometimes people would sleep at somebody else’s house and so
somebody would be accused of stealing articles of clothing from each other.
You know so after that when people starting fighting over things it just didn’t
become fun anymore. You know it was just kinda like I don’t want to go see
what fight is gonna break out I want to go to have fun
AZ
So you know how gay men, they have their own style, the pants are tight, they
wear tight little shirts, was there ever a lesbian style that you could say was
analogous?
Anonymous
I would say it was probably the b boy style. Because it was all about us like
passing. In terms of butch like I could only talk about like femme girls wore
you know femme clothing they wore you know tight jeans tight shirts you
know occasionally they wore baggy clothes but they were still they still wore it
in a feminine way. You know they would still have makeup on they would wear
even the colours the colours were you know feminine colours pink colours you
know pastel powder blues and stuff. Where the butches wore you know we
wore the big sweatshirts with baseball caps on. We wore jeans you know
sneakers then you know timberlands started becoming a new thing so we
graduated to timberlands and for us it was just all about passing
AZ
So your intention was to look like a straight male?
Anonymous
Yeah were kinda like our intention was to to pass as much as possible but
still…
AZ
Can you define pass?
Anonymous
Like right now if I wanted to I could get up and walk to the mens room If I
wanted to
AZ
Ok so passing
Anonymous
Passing is basically going through the day or going like being able to pass as
a male. You know so we would walk into a store and they would be like excuse
me sir. So we would be able to pass or being able to you know we would go
because women’s bathrooms always got lines like we would walk into the
mens bathroom and not hear anything about it. Like that’s passing like going
through life or going through everyday with you know just being thought
people just looking at you and assuming that you’re you know that you’re a
male
AZ
Right. And is that something that you want? Have you always wanted that?
Anonymous
I, I just always wanted to always kinda be me. Like I'm a very individual sort of
self like I don’t I don’t really like labels. Like I don’t like being categorized you
know like I like wearing what I like wearing what I like to wear you know. Right
now well my clothes are male kind of orientated you know I work for a urban
clothing company so a lot of my clothes is. I wear mens clothes because
womens clothes are tighter, I don’t like em at all
Alaina
Why?
Anonymous
I mean on me. I think I’m built too much, I’m built too much like a guy to kind of
wear feminine clothes, I think if I put on feminine clothes I kind of look like
probably a drag queen so
AZ
So you feel uncomfortable in
Anonymous
Yes, even growing up I never liked to wear dresses. Now that I think about it
my mom made me wear a dress one time to, for picture day in elementary
school, and I cried all day. Because yeah at a young age I had I started
developing body hair so I had hairy legs you know I had hair on my arms and I
cried all day because she made me go to school in this dress with these little
socks on so my legs were exposed. And I was just like, it was never because
you know kids are cruel you know kids kids say you know people would look at
me and go oh you’re ugly look at your legs like you know I’d be called a beast
you know. And it was just I hated it it was so bad like they was really, it sucked
AZ
Yeah
Anonymous
It’s and then it’s crazy now that we’re talking like all these memories start
coming out and in in the same elementary school I was actually banned from
school unless I wore a dress every day to school. Because I was so active,
which was another thing and now that I think about it my mom could have
actually sued because I went to a public school I didn’t go to a private school
AZ
Did they have uniforms?
Anonymous
No, we wore everyday clothes you know whatever like my mom you know I
had school clothes and I had play clothes. Obviously my play clothes were
probably a little stained and had holes in them and you know my my school
clothes were nicer and newer and they forbid me to wear regular clothes I
had to wear a dress. They told me they would not allow me back in school
unless I wore a dress because I was too active
AZ
Oh so they wanted to keep you from being active…
Anonymous
They thought that if they put me in a dress that it would keep me from running
around and jumping because they they thought that you know a little girls
they were like I was too active for a little girl. You know I didn’t act like the little
girls I was I would get into fights I was climbing I was always with the little
boys and never with the little girls. And they made me wear a dress everyday
which was another thing that I hated. Like I mean I kind of didn’t have a choice
you know my mom unfortunately I guess you know she didn’t know enough to
kind of protest it. And it was towards the end of the year so for probably like
the last two weeks of school you know I had to deal with it [inaudible] I hated
it
AZ
Its a creative answer to solution
Anonymous
Yeah
AZ
So lets fast forward to now you work in the fashion industry. How many
lesbians are there? Are there …
Anonymous
At work because I work for urban clothing company and I’m talking about
urban talking about I work for Rocawear which is right up there with
[inaudible] and you know everybody knows Jay Z which is you know CEO of
Roc-A-Fella records. And unfortunately you, being gay in an urban society
you know what I mean is, not to say that it’s unheard of but you know you
hear even the lyrics you hear about you know people being you know you
can’t be gay. Basically in in urban society and it’s crazy because when I first
started working there I remember this woman who worked in [accounts
receivable?] department. And you could clearly tell she was a woman it was
nothing you know she didn’t look like butch or androgynous like can look at
her and say is that a woman or is that a man. But she wore pantsuits, not men
pantsuits, they have pantsuits for women she wore pantsuits. And I remember
that they used to call her a shim which I thought was once again excuse me
which I thought was fucked up
AZ
That’s like she him?
Anonymous
Yes and I used to always like I would like I would say one of the biggest
advantages of being androgynous is people always think you’re male. I could
put my ID card in front of anybody and as as much as it says female you
know you know they don’t look at that people you know sex is not a thing that
people actually pay attention to on a card on an identification.They’re kind of
always looking at either your name or your your date of birth. So when I
started working at Rocawear they just automatically assumed I was a guy.
You know and I needed a job and I actually got the job through a temp
agency. So I kind of really didn’t, because it was a temp agency I didn’t think I
was actually gonna be there long. So I kind of didn’t correct anybody or make
a big thing about it and then even more after they I used to hear them say
this. And I asked I used to ask I said why do you call her a shim like why do you
call her that? And they used to be like look at her, look at the way she dresses
and I would be like what’s wrong with the way she dresses? Like she has a
pantsuit on it’s not a mens suit its a womans suit. And they used to be like you
know but just look at her shes you know shes shes she looks like a man. She
doesn’t look like a man, she’s a woman she’s wearing a pantsuit like what’s
the problem. And I would start getting into arguments but and then kind of
backed off to kind of not draw and I think the woman was was oblivious to it
because they would call her a shim to her face and should laugh and go
yeah I’m a shim. And I don’t think she kind of knew what they were saying
about her and then she would she would talk about that she had a boyfriend.
And of course they would all make fun of her and be like oh your full of shit
you know you got a boyfriend, which was like still once again messed up. And
so fortunately I didn’t realize it but I I then became full time.
At the time I worked when I first started at at Rocawear I worked in the internet
department. So I used to basically coordinate what you see on the website.
You know getting images together, coordinating photo shoots with the
clothes, customer service, basically everything. And they had another des
they brought in this new designer and I remember his name was David Ayala
he was a gay man and clearly gay flaming as hell. You know cool, you know
cool guy and people used to make fun of him. Like like you know they would
joke with him but of course always joke with him in like a homophobic way.
You know like they would say they would say stupid stuff like you know like
how was that dick last night or something like that. Like this is a urban like
thing so they didn’t give a shit like there was no biting their tongues there was
nothing you know like the office is clearly homophobic. Like people say they
don’t have a problem with it you know but you hear like the responses and the
things that they say the snickering like underneath their breath. And he used
to get a lot of crap but I think he just used to joke it off he was probably
making a crapload of money for being for being a head designer
AZ
Right, yeah, sure
Anonymous
And then once again the company just grew you know and now I work I I
started about three years ago working for the internet department I was
working for the IT department. Because the internet they actually started
outsourcing to a company called E fashions, which also runs JLo site baby fat.
So I was actually going to be let go. And by the grace of God, I was saved by
my boss to come and work in the IT department because Rocawear then
started getting big started blowing up started becoming more popular. So
they needed more people. And from there we move to 1411 Broadway, which is
the fashion district that's the big building that got the if you’ve seen it’s got the
giant button.
AZ
Oh!
Anonymous
That's the building I work in. And so we expanded we actually used to be 463 7
Avenue, and it became bigger and then they moved to to 1411 Broadway and
staff started you know, more people production started getting bigger
designs got a bit bigger. And there are people that you could kind of I want to
say, you know, when you’re gay, you have gaydar, you kind of know, you know
who's or you suspect. And people just ridicule them like you could. I mean, I
always thought I always kept it to myself. And like you know I would say in my
head oh, she looks like shes gay and then they started this in so funny. I think
nobody messed with him because he was he was a big guy, there was a
woven designer [move insurance?] or like these button up shirts. Yeah. And
his name was Lesley. And he was he was out. He was clearly out. He's gay.
Everything about him. Right. He talked, you could clearly tell as soon as he
talked to you, he was gay. And I think nobody said anything to him because I
think they were scared of him. You know.
AZ
Because he was physically.
Anonymous
He was physically big. You know, like, he was very muscular. He was a big,
muscular black guy. And he was Canadian. I didn't know that. But it kind of
quieted down a little bit, because I think people kind of curbed their tone
around him because he would look like he didn't. He was a person that you
would say something that he would just sit there and just, you know, what we
call read. Like, he would just read you. You know.
AZ
What does that mean?
Anonymous
Read is like a gay term in terms of is a gay word for like, telling you off.
AZ
Okay.
Anonymous
Like he would simply put his hand on his head. He would do the whole finger
gesture. And it's even funnier when you got this kind of big muscular guy.
AZ
Yeah.
Anonymous
Like you know, like, scolding you, like, how you probably would see a younger,
you know, petite woman like scolding.
AZ
Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous
You know, somebody and I think he just scared the shit out of people. Yeah, I
was like, in the corner. But yes. You know, but, you know, it makes me sad
sometime that I can't be like, who I am there. You know, like, my biggest fear, I
think at work is people finding out. You know, and it's come like real close at
times. When people find it out.
AZ
Yeah
Anonymous
Because we have sample sales. Rokawear has these awesome sample sales.
I got your number I'll let you know. And I, they open it to the public from like,
the first hour. It's it's just employees, and then they open it to the public. And
there was this guy who I actually used to go out with his friend when I was
younger, when I was kind of going through my you know what am I phase
straight or or gay? And he comes to every sample sale.
AZ
Does he recognise you?
Anonymous
I don't let him like I've came real close where I've I've gone in. And I've saw him
and I kind of timed real quick, before he didn't even see me. And it was funny
one time I went in to talk to Michelle, which is actually J sister, when she works
there, she's real cool. And I went in, I was like Michelle, and I said, Michelle, he
kind of like I, I saw him like a profile, like view of him and he went to turn. And
when I saw him, I did kind of like ran out of room. So Michelle was like
[redacted] what. And I'm like, nothing, I'll talk to you later.
AZ
That's amazing that you have to do that.
Anonymous
Like every sample, like one every time we have a sample sale I avoid, like
passing like the office is huge so I could kind of get to where I need to go
through any kind of like, I could just. Sometimes I have to literally walk around
the whole entire office to get to the stairs [inaudible]. Or I’ll leave and just take
the elevator up one floor, because we have two floors. So I'll take the elevator
to the next floor with my office is or cubicle. And just to avoid, just to avoid. It's,
it's really crazy.
AZ
That is something else, yeah. To me, it's like New York City this day.
Anonymous
But I mean, once again, I work in, I work in a urban culture where, you know, it's
really not acceptable to be to be gay or lesbian. And then all the women in
my office are kind of like, you know, there are some attractive women. So of
course, if you're don't look like the typical woman, you know, you're that oddity,
you know, so it just, you know, sometimes I think, you know, I shouldn't be here,
and all like that that's not fair. To myself. Like, I feel like sometimes I'm not
being true to myself, because I kind of lead this double life. You know, but
unfortunately, I found a career that I really liked. And I made a lot of contacts, I
kind of put it to the side, you know, so I could make more women get that 30%
off for wholesalers.
AZ
So how are you doing? Are you getting tired?
Anonymous
No, I am good. You tired? Break or Anything?
AZ
No, I have so many questions. I don't know how much contact you had with
the rest of the fashion industry. But do you think that other places in fashion
would be as bad?
Anonymous
As long as they're not urban, I don't think they are. I think it's only the urban,
like, clothing companies that we you you kind of fall into that. You know, that
where its just not acceptable. Like, you could probably like I'm pretty sure in
every in I'm pretty sure there are gay people in Rockafella records that are
putting their gay people in Sean John, you know, even even in the in the other
clothing companies like Echo. Probably [Nietzsche?], you know, there are there
people everywhere, but I just think that it's just, I feel bad. I feel like if they could
be who they are, and be openly gay at the job like I commend them. Like and,
you know, I think it's, I think it's different for men than it is for women. I think the
men because you think about fashion, sometimes you think, you know, if a
guy's a designer, he's gay. They used to, you know, like, he's a designer, he's
gay. So it's kinda like, you know, they already fall in that category. And, you
know, their stereotypes, I say, into that category. So, but I think when it's a
woman, it's still like, I think if it's, if she's femme, you know, she kind of just
passes, you know, but if you're Butch, then you're hit with that whole oh you
want to be a man or you haven't had a guy to give it to correct or, or
something like you’re just considered like, odder than odd. You know, I mean,
like, you're just worse than that gay designer. But we could deal with him. He's
gay. We know. He's a designer, you know, but you're there's something wrong
with you.
AZ
Yeah.
Anonymous
So but I think they're I think, you know, I think there are gay and lesbian in
every single aspect of you know, in fashion. I mean regardless in urban, I think
they’re everywhere.
AZ
You just don’t know who they are.
Anonymous
No, I wish they did. I wish I did. You know, like, if I could go to a company where
I know that there were probably other gay and lesbian people that were out
like I would in a heartbeat.
AZ
My boss is Lesbian actually. And her partner was the also the business
partner. But that's besides the point. And actually, I think you've hit everything.
Is there anything else you want to talk about?
Anonymous
Is there anything else you wanna know?
AZ
Let me see. Not really, let’s end there. Okay. Thank you very much. This has
been an excellent interview.
This is Alaina Zulli interviewing [redacted] goes by [redacted] on May 31 2007,
in Bobst library. Okay, so [redacted], let's start with your background. Tell me
where you were born. Then about your family.
Anonymous
Excuse me, I was born in New York City, Beth Israel hospital. I am the last born
out of four children, two boys, two girls. My mom is a single, single mother.
Unfortunately my dad was at the time I was born children. My dad,
unfortunately my my father was killed in some kind of confrontation with
somebody. So I never really knew my dad. I have a stepfather who raised us
who I kind of recognise as my dad because he's the only father figure I've
known. And we grew up in Brooklyn, Park Slope, excellent neighbourhood.
Should have stayed there. Guess that kind of answers a lot. And I, I mainly
grew up with just my sister, just me and my sister. My two brothers were
actually raised with my grandmother. I believe my mom probably had them
when she was really young. So they grew up with my grandmother. It was cool
like, we, we lived in a household where it was just the four of us. Unfortunately,
my mom has a my mom has a mental condition. She's diagnosed as being
schizophrenic. So that was a little weird sometimes, you know, my mom was
kind of always in and out of hospital. I actually when I was born, I was born
with what's called CAH, it stands for congenital adrenal hyperplasia. It actually
means I'm missing an enzyme in my body, my Adrenaline gland doesn't
produce a certain enzyme. And I was actually also born with ambiguous
genitalia. Which, as most people know, my sometimes I think about it when I
was born, you know, most babies when they're born, they like you have a you
have a girl you have a boy, I picture when I was born, it's like you have a Okay.
Wait a minute, give us a second, we'll get back to you. So, unfortunately, I I was
always in and out of the hospital myself, you know, young kind of went
through a series of reconstructive surgeries, which I think also kind of answers
a lot in terms of my sexual orientation. You know, being being a lesbian, being
Butch, you know, based on just my overall appearance, you know, I have
unfortunate have higher testosterone levels, which gives me a more
androgynous Look, when people could kind of think that, you know, I'm a
female, but I'm not quite sure.
Alaina Zulli
Well, you have facial hair, which to many people is a clear indication.
Anonymous
Yeah, I mean, but nowadays with so many you know, transgender people, like
some people not too sure whether it's facial hair due to you know, hormones,
right. And, you know, the whole transition over
AZ
So were you raised as a girl or a boy?
Anonymous
I was raised as a girl as a girl, my mom put [compensated?] little dresses on
me and, and stuff, but I think what was unique about my mom was that she, I
think, because I was born with this condition she didn’t really enforce a lot of
like, she didn't, when we went out, I if it was a family event, she put a dress on
me. But really, I played with I played with cars, Star Wars figures, action figures,
I never really had dolls, like my sister was more though, the doll and makeup
type, you know, I played with cars, trucks, I was very active. You know, I would, I
was always jumping around, you know, just like a little boy, I was jumping
around. All my friends were boys. I really never had any little girls as friends. So
I think my mom kind of, you know, growing up, which was, I guess, good. She
never enforced it on me. You know, except for family events. You know? So
that was I think that was really good. In terms of, you know, my upbringing, I
wasn’t a kind of, you know, forced to be this little girl. I just grew up as a
regular child, you know, just enjoying the everyday life of just being a child
AZ
Let you find yourself and just be yourself.
Anonymous
Yeah, I it's funny because I look back and I know you know, people I always ask
about, you know, when when's the first time you realise you a lesbian. And I
think back and I had to be like seven years old, in the second grade, like, I
used to have a crush on my second grade teacher. And I used to follow her
everywhere, like, you know, when the kids would go to lunch, and I never had
to go to lunch with the kids like I would, she would, I would have lunch with her.
She would take me rollerskating on the weekends. And I slept over her house
one time, but you know, I'm seven years old, and I'm thinking like, yes, sleeping
with this older woman. You know, and then, of course, you know, not every now
and then her boyfriend would tag along, and I will kind of get mad at him, you
know, go rollerskating. And I would kind of knock him down because I didn't
want him to be around. And then she got married, she announced to the class
that she was getting married. And she invited the whole class to her wedding.
And I refused to go. I was so upset. I was devastated. I was like, Oh, my God, I
just lost this woman in my life. And, you know, my mom kind of was trying to
force me to go and I was like, oh, no, no. So I kind of, I always think back and I
was like, wow, like, that was my first like, experience with, you know, like, loving,
not well, not loving, but you know, like, being attracted to another woman.
AZ
Sure. Yeah.
Anonymous
And I guess from Park Slope, we move to the Lower East Side, which was pretty
bad. It wasn't that bad. You know, we still should’ve stayed in Park Slope.
AZ
Give me a timeframe for when you moved.
Anonymous
We moved when I was about 11 years old. Okay. So, at 11 we moved because
the building that we lived in was being sold. And so my mom just decided, you
know, we should move. So we wound up moving to the lower Eastside in
Manhattan, and it was good there. It was, I think it was also another confusing
time, because there I kind of developed more female friends. You know, like, I
even though I still kind of did boyish things. I had, I started having my female
friends like my best friend. From that moment on she, you know, we were
close. You know, I kind of really didn't look at her in a way that was like, you
know, why I'm attracted to girls. But all her other friends I did. And her sister.
AZ
All the other male friends you mean. Wait, you mean all your male friends
looked over that way?
Anonymous
No, I looked at her other female friends. Like, you know, like, hey, what’s up.
And it was just weird because she would always get me because we were
best friends. I she would always kind of duped me into like, you know, going
out with a guy. Which was, you know, also as confusing because I used to
think, well, well, this is what girls are supposed to do. Like dating. Yeah, like
dating. Like, she wouldn't be interested in some guy. And of course, his friend
would be there. So it's kind of like, you know why I want to be with him. So you
got to be with him. And I kind of felt you know, I think I made a lot of sacrifices
for my friend kind of like going in and just, you know, dating these these guys.
And I guess it wasn't really until I was probably 13. There use there used to be a
military Cadet that was ran by the center precinct. And my brothers actually,
when they were younger, they used to go there. And I wanted to go so they
finally at one point, they kind of banned girls from being there, I guess
because of some altercation, but they started letting them back in. And I went,
and it was awesome. Because there I met this young woman. I don't know if
I've mentioned her name.
AZ
Well, you can you can choose not to have her name ever. Really?
Anonymous
Well, her name was Selena. And she, you know, she then became my kind of,
like, secret gay friend. You know, we both came out to each other, which was
cool. You know, like, I was like, you know, I you know, when you're young you
kind of feel like you know about you've heard terms, you know, lesbian and
gay. But you never really impact impacts you until you actually meet you
know, somebody that's just like you just like everybody kind of feel like you're
alone until you meet somebody. And we came out to each other then we
started discovering that there was other, you know, lesbians and actually
bisexuals at the time. And in our cadet, you know, which was cool because I
felt like you know, not only was I interested in this kind of military cadet, but
you know, it was also surrounded by, you know, my people, my kind of
discovering a whole new community. And I remember when we, we got on our
bikes one weekend and we kind of went kind of girl hunting. You know, we
were like 13, 14 years old. And we we got on our bikes and we went to it was
about this time, and we ran into all these gay people, like right around here
actually around Washington Square Park, it was we kind of got lost, we didn't
know we were going. We just We just heard that, you know, there are, you
know, gay people in the village. So we, you know, ventured out into the village
to go look for, you know, gay people. And girls. And we had just missed the
Pride Parade. Hmm. You know, so when you would, you know, we're riding our
bikes, and we see like, you know, drones of like women, you know, and girls
and other like, we at first we didn't know what what it was until we actually
saw what gave it away is we saw some butch women so like, oh, yeah, we
found, we found our Mecca. And we had, we said, Hold this, this has got to be,
you know, there are a bunch girls. So that means there's got to be, you know,
you know, girls that we like femme girls around here. So we proceeded to dry
it, you know, to ride around on our bikes. And we found these, we found these
two girls who were 19 years old, of course, we lied about our age, we said we're
like 17 years old. And we, you know, proceeded to like kind of walk with them,
you know, hitting on them, and, you know, just kind of asking questions. And
after that just became our new, a new hangout spot. And from there, you
know, as I started going to cadets so I was going to I started going from my
timetable was a little screwed up
AZ
That’s ok. When you, if you can clarify. What your age, there abouts
Anonymous
Um, I would say like about between 15 and 16 is when like I started discovering
the village. And you know, we me and my friends then found out about
because I didn't realise that she was part of a youth group, which was called
Project Reach. And in the youth group, they dealt with social issues that was
like kind of my first interaction with a socialisation group where they spoke
about not only lesbian and gay issues, but issues around sexism and
homophobia, and, you know, classes and as well. So I learned a lot going
there just also, once again, just being around, you know, even tighter
community where people that are more of my age rather than me trying to
perpetrate and, you know, oh, they're lesbian trying to pick up all the women.
And from there we we started interacting with our Hetrick Martin Hetrick Martin
Institute, which is actually located here on Astor Place. It's probably one of the
largest gay and lesbian youth groups. It's also located the Harvey Milk schools
there also
AZ
Oh I think I've seen that. Yeah, can you? Well, later, you’ll have to write that for
me. But Hetrick Martin
Anonymous
At first, they were located by the West Side Highway, but where what people
call the pier. Yes. So they were located there. So project reach was actually
interacting with other youth groups. So once again, my community and I
started seeing that this community is a lot larger. And then we started doing
work with the yes group for Richmond services, which is part of the gay and
lesbian center. So we started doing going over there and networking. And
once I got to the center, I was just, like, amazed, like a whole building just
dedicated for us. And we, that became our new hangout spot. You know, so
about, like, 17 going into 16 going into 17 that became a new, a new hangout
spot, which was actually the corner of 13th Street and Seventh Avenue
AZ
Place. I know
Anonymous
Yeah, yeah. So we used to all kind of that would be the meeting spot. So one
person would like 2 people would get there and then you would wait for the
rest of us, you know, the rest of the people so probably like about six seven
o'clock there was about close to 20 young people there lesbian young people
AZ
And you just stand around on the corner
Anonymous
Yeah, we would all meet up at the corner and then decide what we're gonna
do, which always resulted in ending up at the pier. So we would track down,
walk down Seventh Avenue, till we got to the beginning of Christopher Street.
And of course, it would take us like two hours just to walk down the block.
Because we would stop and see people we know. And stop at stores, you
know, and, of course, it was all about fashion, even when I was younger, you
know, we used to stop and look at the stores and the clothing. You know,
because back then there used to be a lot of, I think it happens now. But
unfortunately, I'm kind of out of the loop, there used to be a lot of one was
called balls, balls. Yeah, they were basically many fashion shows that there
was small communities or houses that were ran by, you know, kind of, they
had mothers, which were predominantly like gay men, and by House fathers,
which was sometimes, you know, the butcher, lesbians, or sometimes they
would just be a gay. Another gay gentleman that was, I guess, a little bit more
butcher than the mother. And they would hold these balls, these kind of, kind
of mini fashion shows, and people would walk, like literally walk down this
catwalk for different categories. So some would run down, some would walk
for categories that we would call face, which will cover like you had a girl face.
So some of the most feminine gay boys would walk for that category, or they
had what was called boy realness. And some of the butch women would
actually walk in the whole thing was about passing. It was like, we had our
own little kind of fashion Yeah, show, which I don't know if you've ever seen the
movie. And you may want to pick it up, it's called Paris is burning.
Paris is burning actually talks about the beginnings of the whole ball thing
happened like in the early like, 80s. And, I don't know, if you've also ever seen
that show America's Top Model, Tyra Banks, yeah, she actually has a
gentleman in there, his name is Willi
Ninja. And his house was actually called the House of Ninja. And he was the
head mother, and they, he actually teaches these these models how to walk,
how to walk down the runway. So, we would go to these different balls
whenever we found out and we would go in and we would cheer for different
people that will walk different different categories. And, you know, we will go
shopping with some people because, you know, you needed to have the
latest and greatest clothes. And I think the probably I used to have the most
fun when I used to go with the, with the boys, the Gay Boys, because they went
by, you know, they would buy these extravagant, you know, dresses, and they
would so funny, they would, they would buy them and keep the tabs on them,
you know, because it was so expensive. Yeah. And then they would use it in a
ball and then have it dry cleaned, and then return the return the dress
AZ
So would they buy, like down in Soho, they would get designer clothes
Anonymous
They would get either in Soho, depending on how much money they had, you
know, like you know, depending on where were they unfortunately, some of
them were street workers. So they would get money that way some of them
sold drugs, you know. So, a lot of lots of times I would also go to we would go
and go to different thrift shops and kind of put together these ensembles of
different clothes. Which weren’t bad, you know, you could find like really hot
clothes in a thrift store and still look still a good like I love thrift stores. And so
we would go and go to these different ball scenes and stuff. And it was it was
awesome
AZ
That's this is fascinating. Okay, so tell me more about the houses. Was it like
those shelters?
Anonymous
No, no, no, they were just like groups
AZ
They were just like social groups
Anonymous
Yeah, they were just social groups. So you were associated like, you know
each house was known for different you know, they will have these you will go
to these balls. And they will be like, you know, like the top winners. You know,
they would kind of make their own houses. So they were like the best and in
their in you know, whatever category they were. And it was like, you know, I
want to call them almost like gay gangs. Yeah, you know, where you will
belong to a specific house right they have the house of ninja they have the
house of Pandora's, they have the house extravaganza. And, you know, there
was all these people that were part of it. Matter of fact, if you ever seen
Madonna's blonde Blonde Ambition tour, where she did the the whole voguing
thing there. And there's three gentlemen that she actually has in there that
were part of those houses and Madonna herself would actually sometimes
appear at these mini balls, you know, which sometimes would be held at, I
been to 2 of them one time that were held at the sound factory. Back then the
rumor was that Madonna actually owned the part of the sound factory Junior
Vasquez which was a famous DJ and still is used to DJ there. And she would
come and that's actually where she found some of her dancers from this from
this ball scene, and they would go now back then there was this whole
voguing kind of scene. You know which people were done in in the houses
AZ
Can you explain voguing?
Anonymous
Voguing is a dance style that originated I think originated out of the ball
scene. And it could be anything from like, like hand gestures to the way they
move, you know, the way they move their hands and they the way they would
pose. Voguing actually came out of there and then people would do these
moves these dance moves that were just kind of like voguing is a is a is I think
a cross between dancing and posing. And it's kind of a little hard to explain it
where it's easier to see. Unfortunately, I'm butch so I don’t know how to vogue
voguing was more voguing was more you know, kind of like the gay guys
then. So I didn't unfortunately, I didn’t kind of I'm really bad at it. I tried the one
time terrible. But it was it was nice. Like, you know, I really think that that's
where my thing of fashion came from. You know, being around the gay young
people and everything, everything was about fashion. Everything was about
fashion like back then we used to call it used to be called labels. And there
was even a category for that you even walked for you walk down this runway
for you know, your category that you were walking for was called labels. And it
was about who had the best clothes on the most the most expensive clothes
or even you know the most of the time it kind of fell in the category of the
most expensive clothes or even the somebody would get a Louis Vuitton you
know shirt or something or Versace pants you know, I don't I'm not too sure
how big bootlegging was back then and they actually really weren't Yeah,
these designer these designer clothes but the most of the time they were you
know, but it was it was good. You know that actually from there I wanted to
actually apply for fashion industries High School. I was the only person in my
junior high school actually got accepted to fashion industries. I actually went
in for merchandising someone to design in I wanted to design like a Windows
like displays. And that that became also because a movie mannequin where
he you know, created these extravagant window displays. And I could always
remember a few of my friends going and just seeing you know, the Macy's
windows, Bloomingdale's, Windows, or even the way that display the way the
clothes are put together. Unfortunately, they work too well with me. I got into a
lot of fights
AZ
At the school itself?
Anonymous
In fashion industries. Yeah. I think you know, because, because I'm
androgynous I used to always get, you know, are you a girl or are you a boy
and guys, of course, you know, didn’t like, the fact that I think that they didn't
know, or, you know, if they figured out I was a (barrow?) it was like, Oh, well,
you know, she's a lesbian, she Butch, you know, so that became a problem. So
my mom transferred me out of the school and kind of put me in my zone
school, which happened to be two blocks away, which was through a part of
high school
AZ
And this was in the Lower East Side
Anonymous
Yes, the Lower East Side. It was literally three blocks away from my house,
which sucks because I could never cut class without getting caught. And that
school was good. I remember being there. And I remember there used to be
this one young woman that stood out she kind of stood to herself. And to this
day, like I kinda see her but really, I know her because of who she is. You know,
in terms of knowing somebody from school, but not really kind of creating a
relationship with them. Her name was Lee, and she was like, she made me
look femme so much. Like she was like Butch all the way. And I can remember
like seeing her, like, get a lot of, you know, like a lot of shit in school. Because,
you know, sexuality and just the way she looked like she had her head shaved,
which, back then I guess really wasn't acceptable for young women, you
know. And she's got a lot of us and I used to feel so bad. And, you know, I used
to always want to kind of rate reach out, but I always felt, the whole safety
thing where I kind of didn't want to put myself in that position because I just
felt like I got a lot of shit for just looking where I was. And I didn't even have a
shaved head. And I didn't really be as butch she was, you know, they kind of
just associated with me being Butch because the way I dressed I didn't dress
feminine. I dressed in jeans, sneakers, you know t-shirt.
AZ
What was your hair like?
Anonymous
My hair was short, kind of the way it is now. And then I like as fashion started
changing, I let my hair grow. I kind of had this Steven Seagal type haircut
going on with a, I had a ponytail that kind of grew back. And I think a lot of that
happened because my friend started growing her hair that way. And since we
were so tight, we kind of brought it the same the same way. And we we just
continued going in the village and I remember there was a prom. They had a
prom. Unfortunately, when I graduated high school, I couldn't attend my prom.
I mean, I could have but there was the whole thing on you know, being stared
at what was I going to wear? You know, like, can I go there wearing a tuxedo
and have to get shit about it? Or do I have to wear a dress?
AZ
Were there any official rules about it?
Anonymous
There wasn’t. I mean, I think that never really is because I don't think they can
enforce it
AZ
They do it in some states. But I don't know of any…
Anonymous
In terms of the girls having to dress?
AZ
Like a girl can’t go with a girl basically
Anonymous
I don't think I was worried about bringing anybody. If I would have went I
probably would have went with my with my friend Josephine, which was my
best friend that used to make me date boys, who was kind of devastated
after she found out that I started you know, being with girls, and she used to
always taunt me with Madonna used to have the song, La Isla Bonita. And in
the song she talks about when a girl loves a boy and a boy loves a girl. So my
friend used to, you know, every time that part came, like emphasize it. She will
look at me and go when a girl loves a boy and a boy loves a girl.
AZ
After you came out to her?
Anonymous
After I came out. But um, she I think she was just doing that because she was
just teasing me. You know, like she was really cool I didn’t unlike, unlike most
people's experiences, and I'd say mine coming out was a little not kind of
lucky. But it wasn't that hard. My mom kind of found out because she read my
diary, which I actually left my diary in a car. And one of her friends found it
and gave it to her. So I was a little awkward
AZ
How old were you?
Anonymous
17 when she found out but I think you know mom's always know. Yeah, you
know, so. I don't put dresses. I don't put dresses on there nothing feminine
about me. You know, I don't bring guys home. You know, I never talk about
boyfriends. So, you know, she just kind of did her own little you know, when she
when I came in the house, she kind of just not threw it at me she kind of just
like tossed it. And and I can remember when she tossed it because she she
made this comment like she said she said cheers to your night in heaven or
something, because unfortunately it was talked about my first sexual
experience in in the, in my diary. I was just kind of like frozen when she when
she said it and that was kind of the only thing she said after that, like we never
she never you know, we didn't sit down and talk about it. You know, it was just
kind of like that was a one little comment and life just kind of went on. Which I
don't know if it was a good thing, but it seemed to work itself now. Yeah. That's
the I think I got a little scattered there, timeline.
AZ
Tell me more about what when you were talking about the balls. You
mentioned what the boys wore. The girls I mean, were the girls involved with it
Anonymous
Yes, yes, the girls were and the girls it, I think what was funny is when the kind
of femme girls would go against the femme guys for the same category, you
know, because they had a girl realness and even femmes would walk for this
category, you know, competing against, like these very feminine gay boys.
And I think the funniest thing was when the boys used to win. Right? And the
same thing with like, see the, I think the whole bunch femme thing is is an
attitude, or I think I want to say attitude, you know, or kind of I think it's attitude
because I think I kind of, you know, put out this kind of very rough attitudes
sometimes, you know, not so much frail or even then ethical being
stereotypically feminine, women are frail as well.
AZ
No but feminine does usually imply frailty culturally. So there were say butch
women walking in these balls?
Anonymous
Yeah we would walk like I would walk for boy realness. And I would sometimes
go against like you know the kind of like butch gay boys. You know and it was
almost the same thing like you know like here is a butch woman you know
winning this category you know that was kind of like actual like you are a boy
and you can’t win it like what’s up with that. And then after that it kind of faded
like you know the the butch boys after that didn’t really walk for realness they
kind of they kind of excuse me. A new category started coming out so then
they had like b boy realness. Or and b boy realness was all about you know a
straight boy passing as a I mean a gay boy walking this category trying to act
straight. Like he would act thug. You know so he would have the baggy
clothes on and you know the Tommy Hilfiger hoody you know the hat and he
would walk and try to pass as a straight boy. And it’s funny because he’s
walking for this category that he wins and then you see the gay boy kind of
come out and they it was just fun. Like the different then it started after a while
it started getting boring because like new categories and things started
coming out and then you know there started to be a lot of animosity amongst
you know people you know and then it started becoming a thing where
people then started fighting like you know you would go to a ball and I can
remember like towards the end when I stopped going like I went half the time
to kind of watch my friend’s back. Because it, a fight always broke out
AZ
Over who won?
Anonymous
Over who won or a disagreement about who won or you know it started
coming about you know like things that kinds you know fight about. Like oh
well you aint wearing real labels like your labels aint real. You know like your
wearing bootleg clothing. Or you know, because it was such a tight
community sometimes people would sleep at somebody else’s house and so
somebody would be accused of stealing articles of clothing from each other.
You know so after that when people starting fighting over things it just didn’t
become fun anymore. You know it was just kinda like I don’t want to go see
what fight is gonna break out I want to go to have fun
AZ
So you know how gay men, they have their own style, the pants are tight, they
wear tight little shirts, was there ever a lesbian style that you could say was
analogous?
Anonymous
I would say it was probably the b boy style. Because it was all about us like
passing. In terms of butch like I could only talk about like femme girls wore
you know femme clothing they wore you know tight jeans tight shirts you
know occasionally they wore baggy clothes but they were still they still wore it
in a feminine way. You know they would still have makeup on they would wear
even the colours the colours were you know feminine colours pink colours you
know pastel powder blues and stuff. Where the butches wore you know we
wore the big sweatshirts with baseball caps on. We wore jeans you know
sneakers then you know timberlands started becoming a new thing so we
graduated to timberlands and for us it was just all about passing
AZ
So your intention was to look like a straight male?
Anonymous
Yeah were kinda like our intention was to to pass as much as possible but
still…
AZ
Can you define pass?
Anonymous
Like right now if I wanted to I could get up and walk to the mens room If I
wanted to
AZ
Ok so passing
Anonymous
Passing is basically going through the day or going like being able to pass as
a male. You know so we would walk into a store and they would be like excuse
me sir. So we would be able to pass or being able to you know we would go
because women’s bathrooms always got lines like we would walk into the
mens bathroom and not hear anything about it. Like that’s passing like going
through life or going through everyday with you know just being thought
people just looking at you and assuming that you’re you know that you’re a
male
AZ
Right. And is that something that you want? Have you always wanted that?
Anonymous
I, I just always wanted to always kinda be me. Like I'm a very individual sort of
self like I don’t I don’t really like labels. Like I don’t like being categorized you
know like I like wearing what I like wearing what I like to wear you know. Right
now well my clothes are male kind of orientated you know I work for a urban
clothing company so a lot of my clothes is. I wear mens clothes because
womens clothes are tighter, I don’t like em at all
Alaina
Why?
Anonymous
I mean on me. I think I’m built too much, I’m built too much like a guy to kind of
wear feminine clothes, I think if I put on feminine clothes I kind of look like
probably a drag queen so
AZ
So you feel uncomfortable in
Anonymous
Yes, even growing up I never liked to wear dresses. Now that I think about it
my mom made me wear a dress one time to, for picture day in elementary
school, and I cried all day. Because yeah at a young age I had I started
developing body hair so I had hairy legs you know I had hair on my arms and I
cried all day because she made me go to school in this dress with these little
socks on so my legs were exposed. And I was just like, it was never because
you know kids are cruel you know kids kids say you know people would look at
me and go oh you’re ugly look at your legs like you know I’d be called a beast
you know. And it was just I hated it it was so bad like they was really, it sucked
AZ
Yeah
Anonymous
It’s and then it’s crazy now that we’re talking like all these memories start
coming out and in in the same elementary school I was actually banned from
school unless I wore a dress every day to school. Because I was so active,
which was another thing and now that I think about it my mom could have
actually sued because I went to a public school I didn’t go to a private school
AZ
Did they have uniforms?
Anonymous
No, we wore everyday clothes you know whatever like my mom you know I
had school clothes and I had play clothes. Obviously my play clothes were
probably a little stained and had holes in them and you know my my school
clothes were nicer and newer and they forbid me to wear regular clothes I
had to wear a dress. They told me they would not allow me back in school
unless I wore a dress because I was too active
AZ
Oh so they wanted to keep you from being active…
Anonymous
They thought that if they put me in a dress that it would keep me from running
around and jumping because they they thought that you know a little girls
they were like I was too active for a little girl. You know I didn’t act like the little
girls I was I would get into fights I was climbing I was always with the little
boys and never with the little girls. And they made me wear a dress everyday
which was another thing that I hated. Like I mean I kind of didn’t have a choice
you know my mom unfortunately I guess you know she didn’t know enough to
kind of protest it. And it was towards the end of the year so for probably like
the last two weeks of school you know I had to deal with it [inaudible] I hated
it
AZ
Its a creative answer to solution
Anonymous
Yeah
AZ
So lets fast forward to now you work in the fashion industry. How many
lesbians are there? Are there …
Anonymous
At work because I work for urban clothing company and I’m talking about
urban talking about I work for Rocawear which is right up there with
[inaudible] and you know everybody knows Jay Z which is you know CEO of
Roc-A-Fella records. And unfortunately you, being gay in an urban society
you know what I mean is, not to say that it’s unheard of but you know you
hear even the lyrics you hear about you know people being you know you
can’t be gay. Basically in in urban society and it’s crazy because when I first
started working there I remember this woman who worked in [accounts
receivable?] department. And you could clearly tell she was a woman it was
nothing you know she didn’t look like butch or androgynous like can look at
her and say is that a woman or is that a man. But she wore pantsuits, not men
pantsuits, they have pantsuits for women she wore pantsuits. And I remember
that they used to call her a shim which I thought was once again excuse me
which I thought was fucked up
AZ
That’s like she him?
Anonymous
Yes and I used to always like I would like I would say one of the biggest
advantages of being androgynous is people always think you’re male. I could
put my ID card in front of anybody and as as much as it says female you
know you know they don’t look at that people you know sex is not a thing that
people actually pay attention to on a card on an identification.They’re kind of
always looking at either your name or your your date of birth. So when I
started working at Rocawear they just automatically assumed I was a guy.
You know and I needed a job and I actually got the job through a temp
agency. So I kind of really didn’t, because it was a temp agency I didn’t think I
was actually gonna be there long. So I kind of didn’t correct anybody or make
a big thing about it and then even more after they I used to hear them say
this. And I asked I used to ask I said why do you call her a shim like why do you
call her that? And they used to be like look at her, look at the way she dresses
and I would be like what’s wrong with the way she dresses? Like she has a
pantsuit on it’s not a mens suit its a womans suit. And they used to be like you
know but just look at her shes you know shes shes she looks like a man. She
doesn’t look like a man, she’s a woman she’s wearing a pantsuit like what’s
the problem. And I would start getting into arguments but and then kind of
backed off to kind of not draw and I think the woman was was oblivious to it
because they would call her a shim to her face and should laugh and go
yeah I’m a shim. And I don’t think she kind of knew what they were saying
about her and then she would she would talk about that she had a boyfriend.
And of course they would all make fun of her and be like oh your full of shit
you know you got a boyfriend, which was like still once again messed up. And
so fortunately I didn’t realize it but I I then became full time.
At the time I worked when I first started at at Rocawear I worked in the internet
department. So I used to basically coordinate what you see on the website.
You know getting images together, coordinating photo shoots with the
clothes, customer service, basically everything. And they had another des
they brought in this new designer and I remember his name was David Ayala
he was a gay man and clearly gay flaming as hell. You know cool, you know
cool guy and people used to make fun of him. Like like you know they would
joke with him but of course always joke with him in like a homophobic way.
You know like they would say they would say stupid stuff like you know like
how was that dick last night or something like that. Like this is a urban like
thing so they didn’t give a shit like there was no biting their tongues there was
nothing you know like the office is clearly homophobic. Like people say they
don’t have a problem with it you know but you hear like the responses and the
things that they say the snickering like underneath their breath. And he used
to get a lot of crap but I think he just used to joke it off he was probably
making a crapload of money for being for being a head designer
AZ
Right, yeah, sure
Anonymous
And then once again the company just grew you know and now I work I I
started about three years ago working for the internet department I was
working for the IT department. Because the internet they actually started
outsourcing to a company called E fashions, which also runs JLo site baby fat.
So I was actually going to be let go. And by the grace of God, I was saved by
my boss to come and work in the IT department because Rocawear then
started getting big started blowing up started becoming more popular. So
they needed more people. And from there we move to 1411 Broadway, which is
the fashion district that's the big building that got the if you’ve seen it’s got the
giant button.
AZ
Oh!
Anonymous
That's the building I work in. And so we expanded we actually used to be 463 7
Avenue, and it became bigger and then they moved to to 1411 Broadway and
staff started you know, more people production started getting bigger
designs got a bit bigger. And there are people that you could kind of I want to
say, you know, when you’re gay, you have gaydar, you kind of know, you know
who's or you suspect. And people just ridicule them like you could. I mean, I
always thought I always kept it to myself. And like you know I would say in my
head oh, she looks like shes gay and then they started this in so funny. I think
nobody messed with him because he was he was a big guy, there was a
woven designer [move insurance?] or like these button up shirts. Yeah. And
his name was Lesley. And he was he was out. He was clearly out. He's gay.
Everything about him. Right. He talked, you could clearly tell as soon as he
talked to you, he was gay. And I think nobody said anything to him because I
think they were scared of him. You know.
AZ
Because he was physically.
Anonymous
He was physically big. You know, like, he was very muscular. He was a big,
muscular black guy. And he was Canadian. I didn't know that. But it kind of
quieted down a little bit, because I think people kind of curbed their tone
around him because he would look like he didn't. He was a person that you
would say something that he would just sit there and just, you know, what we
call read. Like, he would just read you. You know.
AZ
What does that mean?
Anonymous
Read is like a gay term in terms of is a gay word for like, telling you off.
AZ
Okay.
Anonymous
Like he would simply put his hand on his head. He would do the whole finger
gesture. And it's even funnier when you got this kind of big muscular guy.
AZ
Yeah.
Anonymous
Like you know, like, scolding you, like, how you probably would see a younger,
you know, petite woman like scolding.
AZ
Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous
You know, somebody and I think he just scared the shit out of people. Yeah, I
was like, in the corner. But yes. You know, but, you know, it makes me sad
sometime that I can't be like, who I am there. You know, like, my biggest fear, I
think at work is people finding out. You know, and it's come like real close at
times. When people find it out.
AZ
Yeah
Anonymous
Because we have sample sales. Rokawear has these awesome sample sales.
I got your number I'll let you know. And I, they open it to the public from like,
the first hour. It's it's just employees, and then they open it to the public. And
there was this guy who I actually used to go out with his friend when I was
younger, when I was kind of going through my you know what am I phase
straight or or gay? And he comes to every sample sale.
AZ
Does he recognise you?
Anonymous
I don't let him like I've came real close where I've I've gone in. And I've saw him
and I kind of timed real quick, before he didn't even see me. And it was funny
one time I went in to talk to Michelle, which is actually J sister, when she works
there, she's real cool. And I went in, I was like Michelle, and I said, Michelle, he
kind of like I, I saw him like a profile, like view of him and he went to turn. And
when I saw him, I did kind of like ran out of room. So Michelle was like
[redacted] what. And I'm like, nothing, I'll talk to you later.
AZ
That's amazing that you have to do that.
Anonymous
Like every sample, like one every time we have a sample sale I avoid, like
passing like the office is huge so I could kind of get to where I need to go
through any kind of like, I could just. Sometimes I have to literally walk around
the whole entire office to get to the stairs [inaudible]. Or I’ll leave and just take
the elevator up one floor, because we have two floors. So I'll take the elevator
to the next floor with my office is or cubicle. And just to avoid, just to avoid. It's,
it's really crazy.
AZ
That is something else, yeah. To me, it's like New York City this day.
Anonymous
But I mean, once again, I work in, I work in a urban culture where, you know, it's
really not acceptable to be to be gay or lesbian. And then all the women in
my office are kind of like, you know, there are some attractive women. So of
course, if you're don't look like the typical woman, you know, you're that oddity,
you know, so it just, you know, sometimes I think, you know, I shouldn't be here,
and all like that that's not fair. To myself. Like, I feel like sometimes I'm not
being true to myself, because I kind of lead this double life. You know, but
unfortunately, I found a career that I really liked. And I made a lot of contacts, I
kind of put it to the side, you know, so I could make more women get that 30%
off for wholesalers.
AZ
So how are you doing? Are you getting tired?
Anonymous
No, I am good. You tired? Break or Anything?
AZ
No, I have so many questions. I don't know how much contact you had with
the rest of the fashion industry. But do you think that other places in fashion
would be as bad?
Anonymous
As long as they're not urban, I don't think they are. I think it's only the urban,
like, clothing companies that we you you kind of fall into that. You know, that
where its just not acceptable. Like, you could probably like I'm pretty sure in
every in I'm pretty sure there are gay people in Rockafella records that are
putting their gay people in Sean John, you know, even even in the in the other
clothing companies like Echo. Probably [Nietzsche?], you know, there are there
people everywhere, but I just think that it's just, I feel bad. I feel like if they could
be who they are, and be openly gay at the job like I commend them. Like and,
you know, I think it's, I think it's different for men than it is for women. I think the
men because you think about fashion, sometimes you think, you know, if a
guy's a designer, he's gay. They used to, you know, like, he's a designer, he's
gay. So it's kinda like, you know, they already fall in that category. And, you
know, their stereotypes, I say, into that category. So, but I think when it's a
woman, it's still like, I think if it's, if she's femme, you know, she kind of just
passes, you know, but if you're Butch, then you're hit with that whole oh you
want to be a man or you haven't had a guy to give it to correct or, or
something like you’re just considered like, odder than odd. You know, I mean,
like, you're just worse than that gay designer. But we could deal with him. He's
gay. We know. He's a designer, you know, but you're there's something wrong
with you.
AZ
Yeah.
Anonymous
So but I think they're I think, you know, I think there are gay and lesbian in
every single aspect of you know, in fashion. I mean regardless in urban, I think
they’re everywhere.
AZ
You just don’t know who they are.
Anonymous
No, I wish they did. I wish I did. You know, like, if I could go to a company where
I know that there were probably other gay and lesbian people that were out
like I would in a heartbeat.
AZ
My boss is Lesbian actually. And her partner was the also the business
partner. But that's besides the point. And actually, I think you've hit everything.
Is there anything else you want to talk about?
Anonymous
Is there anything else you wanna know?
AZ
Let me see. Not really, let’s end there. Okay. Thank you very much. This has
been an excellent interview.