Text
Alaina Zulli
Okay, this is an interview with Maria Maria Gorkhover. On May 30 2007,
interviewed by Alaina Zulli, we are in Bobst Library at NYU, in New York City.
Okay, Maria, let's start with your background where you grew up your age and
a little bit about your family.
Maria Gorkhover
So I grew up in Uzbekistan, which is one of the former Soviet republics. Now it's
an independent country. And I lived there until I was 10 years old. My family,
standard Jewish family, meaning, you know, everybody's Jewish into the nth
generation, like pure read. I have one brother, who is 17. And I have another
brother, who is for my, when my parents came here, like in about three years
after they got here, they divorced. I was like, 13 at the time. And then my mom
was married to a guy who was not Jewish, and they had a baby. And that
baby is my, is my second brother, who is right now four. My dad, he also
remarried, but there's no kids from that marriage. And then they got divorced.
And right now he's not married, but you know, he is in a relationship. And I,
when we came, I lived with both parents, obviously. Then, after my parents
were divorced, I lived with my mom for many, many years. And then about, I
think two years ago, something like that. I moved with my dad because he
lives in Brooklyn, and it's closer for me to commute to school much closer. And
I also like living with him better. So let's see. Anything else?
AZ
What did your parents do?
MG
My parents are both computer programmers. My dad, well, my dad used to
be a computer programmer, but in America, he had a bit of difficulty in that
department. And right now he's trying to be a teacher, like a teacher of high
school mathematics. He's finishing his master's program, so you can be
certified. My mom continued to be a computer programmer. And she works
right now at Duane Reade. Like, you know, in the corporate office and stuff.
AZ
Okay. So, let's jump ahead to your sexuality. Tell me about how you knew you
were lesbian, when you came out, the whole story?
MG
Okay, the question presents itself, how graphic do we need to get? So I always
knew that I liked girls. And I never, so how did I know that I liked them?
Because I had really graphic fantasies about them. And that is before I you
know, I saw any kind of pornography or anything of the sort before we had
internet and before I you know, had Cinemax or anything of the sort, like I had
really kind of graphic fantasies. Nothing like that towards guys. Like, really
nothing. So from, I'd say, well, I'd say age eleven. I started having these
fantasies, and then like, then I didn't know what the hell what that meant,
actually. And by somehow around age fifteen. And I was like, well, let's see, it's
pretty clear that I like girls like a lot. But I actually don't mind guys, because I
didn't find them distasteful or anything like that. So I was like, You know what, I
am bi, because I didn't want to say that I'm lesbian and, you know, cut out the
potential of marriage and men and pleasing my parents and as important
out of my life altogether. So I thought that, well, I thought in my mind that I
was bi until actually recently, it's about a year – no, a year ago, about six
months ago, a little bit more, when I figured out through, like, I guess, recent,
through sexual experiences that I had at that time that No, I was not, in fact, bi
I mean, not minding guys actually doesn't mean that you are attracted to
them. So I mean, I mean, if that's your definition of bi, it's not mine. Right, so. So
then I like identified myself as basically gay as such, although between that
time when I was 23, and the time when I was 15. I always knew that I like girls
like far, far more than guys. So I thought that I was bi, just really more much
more towards girls. But now it's like it's, you know, like, there's no point of me
being with guys because if, I am just like not attracted to them. I can take it,
but why bother? Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Anything else?
AZ
Well, um coming out how was it for you with your family?
MG
Oh, that's that's a drama story and of itself rather. So the first time that I came
out was to my mom when I was 15 years old. And it was this big. Like hysteric
scene, like I was crying and I had like, hysterics and such and hyperventilating
and stuff. Uh. Why I was coming out at that specific time? Because there was
this girl that I loved or I thought I loved and I wanted to be in a relationship
with her.
And even though the smart thing to do would have been to, you know, keep
hush hush about it, and save everybody the trouble, being the excruciatingly
honest person that I am meaning I can't keep any secrets from my parents,
right? I- You know, I, I went to confessional with my mom and the priest. And
she was like, Oh, it's a phase, you know, you shouldn't do this. And basically,
she told me that, if I do start a relationship with a girl, she'll be very
disappointed with me. She will withdraw from me, and she doesn't know what
kind of parent- daughter relationship we'll be able to have. Which was kind of
like a death sentence. So, I mean, because my mom was basically like, my
God at that time, like her approval was my main goal in life and my main
cause of happiness in life, and lack thereof, my main cause of misery in life.
So, I was like, That's it. Like, I like, I, even though I - No, I did love this girl, I didn't
want to be with her. I simply could not do it, even behind my mom's back.
Because I would be, let's say, like, you know, making out with her. And then
with that going on, you'd be like, What would my mom think of me? If she
knew I was doing this? Right. So at that time, I was like, I really, really wanted to
make myself straight. How did I do that? I kind of I started going out with guys
basically. Right. Any, like random guys. Like, you know what, I don't mind them,
so let's stick to that. Right. And I tried to like force myself to not look at girls –
tried being the operative word, obviously.
So and, like, a few days later. Like, I just could not stand the thought of my
mom being disappointed in me and ashamed of me, basically. And
withdrawing from me. I told her mom, you are right, this is a phase and I am in
fact straight and so on and so on. Okay, so I thought, you know, the situation
was taken care of, so I will make myself straight. Or rather, I will just ignore girls
altogether, you know. Cause seeing as I was like well I can just go with guys
for the rest of my life, why should that be a problem? You know.
So fast forward to let's see, I think it was about 19 years old? Right. Then, was it
19 years old? No, it was not 19 years old. It was well, 20, it was actually 21 years
old. Right. I actually, like began a relationship with this girl, like in secrecy at
age eighteen, because I don't know I've calmed down or something. And I was
like, You know what? I mean, like, I'm not going to kill myself over it. But like, I'm
not going to tell my mom because I just could not live with her
disappointmented, like, presence, right?
But at like by age 21, it really begin to kind of weigh down upon me that I could
not really, you know, be with girls and have her know about it. And, like,
basically, there was this conflict with this girl. Okay, you know, we actually, we
had a very strange on again, off again, open relationship where we're
basically best friends and occasionally had sex. So it was not a relationship
like as such, like not in the sense that most people understand that. Right. And
I always knew that I would have like other relationships, other romantic
relationships besides her. And she also knew that that she was like, cool with
it. Right? We were just kind of each other's support system. Up until the time
when we were both I don't know, ready to go find somebody else or
something like that. Basically, best friends who just turned out to be gay both
so you know, why not have sex?
So by age 21, there was this conflict in me. On the one hand, I couldn't I was
like, okay, um, well, I'm bi, so I can be with guys all the time, but that would
mean that I'm gonna be continuously suppressing my urge towards girls,
which was very strong, and it was growing stronger, like every day. On the
other hand, I could not tell my mom any of this because either she'll be
disappointed in me. She'll be like, okay, Maria continue to suppress it or
something like that. Or she'll be like, "No, Maria, you're already 21 years old.
You're an adult. You can go do whatever you want. You can go sleep with
girls," but inside she'll be very, very disappointed and ashamed. She'll just not
say it, but she'll think that and she'll feel it. And I didn't want that.
So the question was, like, suppress myself, for the sake of my mom's approval,
not suppress myself, face her disappointment. Either way, not a pleasant
solution. So, after a lot of, you know, mental anguish that we Jews are known
for. True, right? So, I, I took my mom, I made an appointment with a shrink in
the city, an American shrink, right? And I went to the shrink with my mom, like, I
dragged her to it, because I was like, "Mom I need to tell you something." And
after, and, it was like this big, big dramatic thing once again, in that shrinks
office, right? Because, like, I started crying again, and hyperventilating and
stuff like that. And I even had to go outside to like, calm myself down and
whatever. And then I came back, and I was like, Mama, I love you. And I don't
want to disappoint you, like your approval means everything to me. But I like
girls, and I can't fight it anymore. You know, add all the tears and all that and
all that stuff.
And I wanted to do it in front of a shrink, who has a PHD. So the shrink can
immediately tell my mom, no, it's not a phase. And no, you know, it's not like an
abnormal thing, or whatever it is. So we can have the professional opinion in
the consultation, like right there. Right? So if I tell my mom, it's not a phase, it's
like who the hell am I? I'm no doctor? But if this PhD of psychology tells her? It's
an entirely different thing. She took it like much calmer, actually. Right? And so
you know, and I asked the shrink, like, is this a phase? Like, can you tell my
mom, is it a phase or not? She's like, "No, it's not a phase." And I'm like, "Mom,
I'm 21 years old. It's like, how can it be a phase by now if I've been experiencing
this since 11, 12, something like that." Right?
She took it. And she, at that time, she kind of, she calmed down about it. And
she believed me fully. Like she believed that, you know, that is indeed the
situation. There's nothing you can do about it really, and right and stuff. And I
guess, it also helps the fact that I told her I was bi, because I thought I was bi
at the time. So she's like, well, she likes girls. Let her experiment with girls, sleep
around, but you know, she's still gonna get married to a guy. And actually I
told her as much I'm like, "Yeah, I'm gonna sleep around with girls, party. And
then I'm gonna get married to a guy because I want to have a family," and so
on and so on. She's like, okay, you know, that's, that's not a problem. I mean, it's
unfortunate. That's not the best situation, but you know, we can deal with it.
She's still gonna give me grandkids. Yeah.
So then, it was like, Okay, this you know, this is a much better situation for me
nice and calm. But then it was pressing upon me to confess to my dad, which
I did. After you know, a little bit of Dutch courage.
AZ
Some drinking?
MG
Yes. So, because I was like, You know what, I'm not gonna hyperventilate, I'm
not gonna cry. And I'm not gonna go into hysterics again. I'll be calm, even if
it's chemically induced. So, like, yeah, that was, that was really interesting. Like,
he's sitting on the couch. Right. Watching soccer. I'm like, Papa, I want to talk
to you. Like, okay, talk to me. I'm like, Papa turn off the tv. I'm gonna talk to you.
He muted the soccer. Papa, look at me, I want to talk to you. It's important. He's
like, I'm listening. I'm listening. Like, okay. So I'm like, Papa, like girls. He's like, I
know. Like, what? How do you know this? Like, your mom told me when you
were 15? Yeah, my mom actually, like, as soon as I told her, way back when,
she called up my dad and she told him. And it's amazing that he's actually
very calm about it. Like, it's not like he doesn't think it's a big source of bother.
Especially seeing as at that time, I thought I was bi and my mom thought I
was bi. So my mom was like, yeah, she likes girls, but she also likes guys. So
my dad is like, okay, that's fine. You know, you know, as long as she likes, guys,
it's not a problem. Right?
So but, at the present moment, my mom has, you know, gotten used to it like
it's not like a big deal for her really. And it's my dad, he was, he was actually a
lot less, a lot less having problems with than my mom, like very much so. I-like
he was like, he doesn't really care, like, who do I sleep with or something like
that. As long as I make a family and stuff. So it was fine. Like it became like
very calm and stuff. But then I realized about, basically in November of 2006,
after having like sexual experiences with both girls and guys, like one after the
other pretty soon, you know, like concentrated. Like that, you know what, guys
don't do anything for me, not really. And, you know, it's girls that do. So I guess
I must be gay then, like, fully, you know, which was not such a big switch
because, like, I don't know, 80% towards girls and 100% towards girls? So not
such a big switch. So right now, I do identify as gay, because my, because you
know, of my experiences. And my, how do I say this? Like, pretty, pretty kind of
concrete definition. Sorry, concrete evidence that I don't like guys. And I do like
girls. Yeah, and I'm not going to say what because that would, that would be,
you know, the graphic part. So, let's see. That's about it. So I mean, did I cover
everything that you want me to?
AZ
Yeah. Right. Okay, so, let's go back to let's, let's go back to when you first
started thinking about girls. Did, did you think that about gender, about
yourself in any gender or how you dressed?
MG
Well, I always, I never thought of myself as a guy. Like, I always knew I was
female. But I always dressed in very loose clothing and either unisex or even
guys clothing. But it was not because like I wanted to be butch, it's because I
thought I was kind of fat. Like I had, like a, like relatively big stomach. And I
wanted to hide that fat. And I was really like, uncomfortable with my body, like
a lot of body issues. And because of that, right? It's just that I suppose if other
girls are uncomfortable with their bodies, and they wear loose clothing, they
will usually be wearing feminine loose clothing, whereas I wore just like T shirts
and sweatshirts and something that a guy would wear with no problem.
Right? Why? Because I just felt more comfortable in those kind of clothing. So
that has been my style since basically, day one, like loose clothing that, that is
either unisex or when guys pants and guys, not guys shirts but like sweatshirts,
right and T shirts.
And that style it was how do I say this? It was not, it was not determined by my
orientation. But at the same time, if I were straight, like as such, and I wanted
to attract the attention of guys, then I probably would be wearing more
feminine clothes and tighter clothes, even on my stomach because I would
be like you know, you know, why not? That's like show something, instead of
showing nothing. But seeing as I was really into girls and I didn't care much
about guys, I was not interested in attracting their attention. So it was not
important for me to wear tight clothes that would attract their attention and
for me to like appear on their radar as potential you know, dating candidates
you know?
AZ
Yeah, so as your self conception as a lesbian as it evolved, did your let's see,
how can I say this. Did your style change at all? Did you feel?
MG
Yes. Okay. My style like in high school was influenced by several factors. First
of all the fact that my parents didn't have a lot of money and I also didn't
want to take a lot of their money so I bought crap basically, like cheap crap
that looked bad. Brand name was something that happens for other people.
So cheap jeans from Kmart, guys jeans, like cheap sweatshirts for like five
bucks, things like that. So I look like a badly dressed guy basically. Right so, so
that, and I mean I could have bought cheap women, cheap girls clothes, you
know from things like pretty girl or you know, any, you know, like really cheap,
cheap, like, what's it called, even Kmart, cheap girls clothes. But I didn't feel
comfortable like showing my body.
So my style in high school was that cheap unisex clothes. Then when I went to
college, I started working and I started making some money. And I started
dressing a little bit better. Like also unisex clothes because I was just used to
that style and then because I still thought of myself as kind of always not
attractive, and unattractive. But more stylish mens clothes, like men's jeans
from Express for example, as opposed to Kmart or Old Navy, like more brand
name, you know, like nicer shirts instead of just crap. Right? Still kind of loose
and still something that a guy could wear also, but just nicer, nicer looking
and better fitting. Right. Ah, and that style continued to about. Well, basically,
up until now, and as I continued throughout college, I worked more, you know,
as I made more money. And I started just asking my mom for money to buy
more brand new things, like nicer things, but I still stuck to unisex slash male
clothes mostly, or at least kind of loose female clothes. Right, like nothing tight,
nothing that shows up anything. If you look at me in regular clothes, it would
be like, okay, the only way you can tell I'm female is you know, possibly boobs
and above the neck, you know. And you know, the shirt could be female, but it
would be loose female. The pants, you know, male pants.
So the quality of my clothes improved, and the fit and the style improved. But
the overall, overall kind of approach has remained the same. And right now, I
have lost some weight recently. So now I feel like I could wear like tight
feminine clothes and look appropriate in them and stuff, appropriate means
good. But I just don't choose to because first of all, I'm so used to wearing
loose clothes, that I'm just comfortable in things that are losing and not tight
fitting. And second of all, I don't feel like having my ass for display, you know,
to all and sundry, it's just I don't know, like, I prefer this kind of approach,
especially the school that I go to, which is City College. It's a, it's mostly there's
a lot of like Hispanics and blacks, there. And the neighborhood itself is
Spanish. And for a white girl tall, white girl, tall, skinny white girl in tight clothes
to be walking around in Spanish Harlem, late at night, in tight clothes. Ahhh,
no, not happening. So like, like, I don't want to attract that kind of attention,
because they are, in that neighborhood, and that setting in my college
specifically, it's very easy for me, like, you know, just by virtue of being exotic
for them, to attract that kind of attention and I don't want that.
Also, I feel like I get more respect, if I wear nice clothes, clothes that are like
brand new, and you see they fit nice and stuff, but they're loose. Because in
our society, women are evaluated on their appearance first and everything
else second. So if my appearance, you know, my shape is taken out of the
equation, then it ceases to be a components available of evaluation for me.
And when people, when I meet new people, they see me, okay, female, but
they don't check out you know, the assets and so on. And they don't make
their judgment based on that, they make their judgment based on their
actual interaction with me in whatever capacity that occurs. So, in that mirror,
I feel like, I could represent myself not as a set of, you know, the stuff but as
like a whole person, and males would be evaluating me as a whole person,
which is what I want.
And females also because girls also judge other girls by their appearance, not
in the sense oh, I want to like do her, but in the sense, you know, comparing to
themselves, I guess. So, in that- So I think that I'm definitely going to stick to
this like loose but now brand name and nice looking stuff. Because for me, it
was also in my chosen profession of engineer, there's not a lot of women. And
obviously. So and I feel like if you don't know, if you present yourself like in any
sexual manner to guys, then they will immediately see you like a something of
an object more or less, not entirely but to some degree, yes. And I don't want
to be seen as an object. Like at all, even like 1%. That's just not, at least not let's
say by just some random guys. You know, I mean, obviously, I want my
girlfriend to want me but not just some random guy in the street.
AZ
So do, you said that that you dress, or that you don't dress to please the male
gaze? Is there any sense in your clothing or how you dress and pleasing the
female gaze?
MG
I have no idea what pleases the female gaze. Well, I mean, okay, I know what
pleases me, but that's the same thing that pleases guys. So it's not, so it's not
like anything different, but I don't really know. I mean, my objective is not to
impress somebody with you know the beauty of my abs. But, like, you know, to
look presentable, clean cut, matching, like wearing quality clothes instead of
junk. It's like somebody, you know, that seems like smart and worthy of
respect. And I, and I think that, you know, my general clothes, they accomplish
that. And also like, lately, it's clothing has ceased to have very much
importance for me honestly, I do have feminine clothes, and I do wear them
when I go out and stuff. Like when I go into a club, I dress appropriately. Of
course, like short skirts, tight shit, the whole nine yards. But that's because the
setting demands it. You know, when you go to a restaurant, you know, I would
also wear like a dress and stuff like that.
But in general, in general, like I don't think I dress to please the female gaze. I
don't try to please, the female gaze means you're like looking for a girlfriend,
which I'm not because I have one. And when I didn't have one, I don't know.
Like, it didn't occur to me that if I dress like sexy, I would attract girls as well as
guys, so it just doesn't work. I don't know if that's the case. So no, not really, I
don't think so. I dress to please me most importantly, and in a manner that is
in accordance with the setting that I'm in. Meaning business casual, when it's
necessary, to college, I can wear whatever I wants, but you know, I wear like,
like nice, like, sort of brand name stuff. To a restaurant, I would wear
something appropriate, and so on and so on. So my objective in terms of
dressing is not to look sexy and not to look hot. And I mean, looking attractive,
yes, but attractiveness in the sense that, you know, I look put together. And my
appearance is fitting the setting, and it's considered normal and appropriate.
And it's like, yeah, that girl dresses nicely, like nothing special. But you know,
not that.
AZ
So this is maybe a little repetitive. But do you consciously use any signs in the
way you dress? Or maybe even the way you walk, or talk, to let other people
know that you're gay? Is that all important to you?
MG
Letting other people know is not important to me, per se. Because to me,
because that has never I mean, while that is a big part of my identity, I've
never been, let's say political about it. Like, you know, I've never been an
activist or anything of the sort. Like if people asked me, I would say girlfriend
and so on, but I don't but I don't you know, have like rainbow flags on my bed
or something. But on the other hand, my attitude, meaning the way I walk the
way I talk, the way I sit, like on a subway. Like if somebody like in the family
looks at me, they'll be like, yeah, she's probably gay. Yeah, because I really
don't have act that feminine. Like really. So, but on the other hand, if
somebody who looks at me who is not really straight and who doesn't have
much experience with gay people, they will, they will not really think gay, they
will be like no no, ithat girl is kind of I don't know nerdy or she's like kind of
eccentric or something like that. But they will not think gay, the reason they
will not think gay is because my hair is long. If my hair was short everybody
will think I'm a total dyke obviously because, for short when I say I don't mean
short as yours, I mean really really short because yours as you know still. Yes.
No, no, no, no short as in boy short Yeah, like that. Yes, I did have that
experience. I used to have like here like this long. This long. I'm showing like
two inches.
AZ
And um, did it, did people perceive and?
MG
Yeah like people mistook me for a guy like so. But actually, when I had my hair
that short, I dress really feminine to compensate so nobody would mistake
me for a guy because if I dress like the way I usually did with that short hair it
would be Sir, Sir, Sir all the time. But yeah, like, like one of my friends. She, she,
she figured out I was gay like, long before I told her because like, she knows a
lot of gay people and stuff like that. And if you want to know in any, any sort of
way, either you're friends with gay people, or you are yourself gay. You
definitely suspect like as soon as you look at me.
AZ
Right. So I'm interested in that you, you bought men's clothing, since you were
very young you said. Did you ever have the sense that that was transgressive?
MG
Because for me it was not. It was not like clothing was not really divided into,
like allowed women's clothes and disallowed mens clothes, it was like, Okay,
I'm not going to wear men's women's pants for the only reason that they are
too tight for my fat ass. And what is like, what jeans would be fitting for me,
meaning what jeans would be loose enough that they would like not show
anything men's jeans, if there was a line of women's clothes that was, well, first
of all, cheap, and second of all loose, I will get those, that will not be a
problem. In fact, I would prefer them because, you know, made for women,
they would fit better. And with mens schools, there were a lot of issues with
comfort and the crotch being too low with that and stuff like that, like because
of the cut. And it's been, what's my objective was not to, to present myself as
gay or to present myself as Butch or to I don't know, rebel or anything like that.
It was simply that is that was the only option of loose pants available to me, or
just who that is available to women period, that women's pants are tight, like
straight up, or at least in my estimation, that is the style currently. And that
was the style when I was younger. And if I don't like the style, then what else
must they turn to? I guess I was turning to I don't know, straight leg men's
pants or something like that. Which is what I did.
AZ
Okay let’s see. Um, just looking around, you’re in New York city, so you see
women all the time and do you, you probably evaluate them and try to guess,
that’s one of my favorite games. Um, is there a style that seems lesbian to
you? Like an iconic style?
MG
Well, if a woman looks really butch, then very likely she is lesbian right. And
you know, well not only looking butch because you can have like, like some 45
year old lady with really short hair from the midwest who is you know, maybe
kind of fat, so she’s wearing mens clothes because that’s the only thing that
will fit. And she’s married with three kids. I don’t mean like that. I mean, I mean,
like looks butch and acts butch and like kind of young and stuff. Obviously,
then that would be to me, not an iconic lesbian style because butches are I
think a minority if we take the lesbian population as a whole, they’re like one
minority of many other subdivisions. But, that is a distinguishably lesbian.
Because, any other style is like straight women wear it also. So it’s not like you
can be like, that is uniquely gay, besides the butch.
AZ
Okay….I guess that’s it, that’s all I have. Is there anything else you want to,
anything else you want to bring up?
MG
Hm, I’m probably not like the best interview subject, because my experiences
are not shaped by my orientation as much as a bunch of other things like
body issues and self esteem and socialization and blah blah blah. Uh, so, hm,
hopefully, I mean, ui don’t know if I’ll be a very accurate, how do I say this, like,
representative of the general population as a whole. Add to it the fact that I
like, am an immigrant with an immigrant mentality. So it’s, so you know, so, I
hope that you can find some American born lesbians who would like, with
normal social development and normal friendships and normal everything.
Whose clothing experiences were in fact shaped a lot by their orientation.
AZ
This is actually one of my questions, is how much really do lesbians care how
visible they are?
MG
Uh, well I cannot speak for all of them. And, okay, it’s like, it works the same
way as straight people. There’s a spectrum, obviously. On the one hand you
have the activists, you know, who march in the Dyke March and rainbow flags
all over the place and so on. Obviously they care very much about visibility.
On the other hand, you have just regular people who don’t really care very
much. Right, or, who cannot be very open about it because of their job or
something like that. Right and obviously you have people who are entirely in
the closet. So, I don’t know if you can say as whole. Obviously, all lesbians
would like to see more lesbians being visible, like on TV or something like that.
Like, that’s what’s up. But, themselves being visible? Mmm, I think that uh, only
a minority is actively concerned with being visible I guess, like the ones with a
more activist mentality. Uh, I don’t have that activist mentality. I don’t mind it,
but I’m not going to go around Spanish Harlem with like a rainbow flag
because that’s just asking for trouble. My friend got into trouble like, doing
that, even though she keeps doing that. Yeah, so, you know what? I can add
one more thing. I can, if you, if you don’t mind. I can tell you what I think about
the way lesbians dress as compared to the way straight women dress?
AZ
Please.
MG
Right. Uh, well, for lesbians’ appearance, like their physical appearance. Is
definitely less important in my opinion than it is for straight women. Because
straight women are ought to get men, who are very visual and for whom the
physical, visual appearance is the make it or break it point, at least initially. So
they’re like, you know, we need to look nice, we need to bring everything to the
table and so on and so on. Uh, for lesbians, seeing as they’re trying to get
women, and women are not so visual, it’s more of a like, they make their
choice like in partner and fuckbuddy and whatever it is, based on the
interaction they have with that person and so on. There, the appearance
becomes less important. So, lesbians, they would, they would probably wear,
probably looser clothing or uh, less mainstream clothing, like more punk style
or something like that. Uh, or more, you know, just not be as tremendously
concerned about presenting their assets, continuously to the entire world.
Because of the, their kind of target market, as it were.
AZ
And just the innate, uh… the innate way that women…
MG
Yeah, like that’s why gay guys are so appearance oriented, right, because
their target market it guys who are appearance oriented. So, you know, if you
wanna, if you want to like market yourself successfully to them, then you have
to uh, look good. And probably that's why straight guys are, can let
themselves go, you know and wear crap and have beer bellies and so on,
because they know women will not be evaluating them based on whether
they have a six pack or not, but based on what they say and what they do
and how much money they make, and so on and so on.
AZ
Okay, very good. Thank you.
Okay, this is an interview with Maria Maria Gorkhover. On May 30 2007,
interviewed by Alaina Zulli, we are in Bobst Library at NYU, in New York City.
Okay, Maria, let's start with your background where you grew up your age and
a little bit about your family.
Maria Gorkhover
So I grew up in Uzbekistan, which is one of the former Soviet republics. Now it's
an independent country. And I lived there until I was 10 years old. My family,
standard Jewish family, meaning, you know, everybody's Jewish into the nth
generation, like pure read. I have one brother, who is 17. And I have another
brother, who is for my, when my parents came here, like in about three years
after they got here, they divorced. I was like, 13 at the time. And then my mom
was married to a guy who was not Jewish, and they had a baby. And that
baby is my, is my second brother, who is right now four. My dad, he also
remarried, but there's no kids from that marriage. And then they got divorced.
And right now he's not married, but you know, he is in a relationship. And I,
when we came, I lived with both parents, obviously. Then, after my parents
were divorced, I lived with my mom for many, many years. And then about, I
think two years ago, something like that. I moved with my dad because he
lives in Brooklyn, and it's closer for me to commute to school much closer. And
I also like living with him better. So let's see. Anything else?
AZ
What did your parents do?
MG
My parents are both computer programmers. My dad, well, my dad used to
be a computer programmer, but in America, he had a bit of difficulty in that
department. And right now he's trying to be a teacher, like a teacher of high
school mathematics. He's finishing his master's program, so you can be
certified. My mom continued to be a computer programmer. And she works
right now at Duane Reade. Like, you know, in the corporate office and stuff.
AZ
Okay. So, let's jump ahead to your sexuality. Tell me about how you knew you
were lesbian, when you came out, the whole story?
MG
Okay, the question presents itself, how graphic do we need to get? So I always
knew that I liked girls. And I never, so how did I know that I liked them?
Because I had really graphic fantasies about them. And that is before I you
know, I saw any kind of pornography or anything of the sort before we had
internet and before I you know, had Cinemax or anything of the sort, like I had
really kind of graphic fantasies. Nothing like that towards guys. Like, really
nothing. So from, I'd say, well, I'd say age eleven. I started having these
fantasies, and then like, then I didn't know what the hell what that meant,
actually. And by somehow around age fifteen. And I was like, well, let's see, it's
pretty clear that I like girls like a lot. But I actually don't mind guys, because I
didn't find them distasteful or anything like that. So I was like, You know what, I
am bi, because I didn't want to say that I'm lesbian and, you know, cut out the
potential of marriage and men and pleasing my parents and as important
out of my life altogether. So I thought that, well, I thought in my mind that I
was bi until actually recently, it's about a year – no, a year ago, about six
months ago, a little bit more, when I figured out through, like, I guess, recent,
through sexual experiences that I had at that time that No, I was not, in fact, bi
I mean, not minding guys actually doesn't mean that you are attracted to
them. So I mean, I mean, if that's your definition of bi, it's not mine. Right, so. So
then I like identified myself as basically gay as such, although between that
time when I was 23, and the time when I was 15. I always knew that I like girls
like far, far more than guys. So I thought that I was bi, just really more much
more towards girls. But now it's like it's, you know, like, there's no point of me
being with guys because if, I am just like not attracted to them. I can take it,
but why bother? Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Anything else?
AZ
Well, um coming out how was it for you with your family?
MG
Oh, that's that's a drama story and of itself rather. So the first time that I came
out was to my mom when I was 15 years old. And it was this big. Like hysteric
scene, like I was crying and I had like, hysterics and such and hyperventilating
and stuff. Uh. Why I was coming out at that specific time? Because there was
this girl that I loved or I thought I loved and I wanted to be in a relationship
with her.
And even though the smart thing to do would have been to, you know, keep
hush hush about it, and save everybody the trouble, being the excruciatingly
honest person that I am meaning I can't keep any secrets from my parents,
right? I- You know, I, I went to confessional with my mom and the priest. And
she was like, Oh, it's a phase, you know, you shouldn't do this. And basically,
she told me that, if I do start a relationship with a girl, she'll be very
disappointed with me. She will withdraw from me, and she doesn't know what
kind of parent- daughter relationship we'll be able to have. Which was kind of
like a death sentence. So, I mean, because my mom was basically like, my
God at that time, like her approval was my main goal in life and my main
cause of happiness in life, and lack thereof, my main cause of misery in life.
So, I was like, That's it. Like, I like, I, even though I - No, I did love this girl, I didn't
want to be with her. I simply could not do it, even behind my mom's back.
Because I would be, let's say, like, you know, making out with her. And then
with that going on, you'd be like, What would my mom think of me? If she
knew I was doing this? Right. So at that time, I was like, I really, really wanted to
make myself straight. How did I do that? I kind of I started going out with guys
basically. Right. Any, like random guys. Like, you know what, I don't mind them,
so let's stick to that. Right. And I tried to like force myself to not look at girls –
tried being the operative word, obviously.
So and, like, a few days later. Like, I just could not stand the thought of my
mom being disappointed in me and ashamed of me, basically. And
withdrawing from me. I told her mom, you are right, this is a phase and I am in
fact straight and so on and so on. Okay, so I thought, you know, the situation
was taken care of, so I will make myself straight. Or rather, I will just ignore girls
altogether, you know. Cause seeing as I was like well I can just go with guys
for the rest of my life, why should that be a problem? You know.
So fast forward to let's see, I think it was about 19 years old? Right. Then, was it
19 years old? No, it was not 19 years old. It was well, 20, it was actually 21 years
old. Right. I actually, like began a relationship with this girl, like in secrecy at
age eighteen, because I don't know I've calmed down or something. And I was
like, You know what? I mean, like, I'm not going to kill myself over it. But like, I'm
not going to tell my mom because I just could not live with her
disappointmented, like, presence, right?
But at like by age 21, it really begin to kind of weigh down upon me that I could
not really, you know, be with girls and have her know about it. And, like,
basically, there was this conflict with this girl. Okay, you know, we actually, we
had a very strange on again, off again, open relationship where we're
basically best friends and occasionally had sex. So it was not a relationship
like as such, like not in the sense that most people understand that. Right. And
I always knew that I would have like other relationships, other romantic
relationships besides her. And she also knew that that she was like, cool with
it. Right? We were just kind of each other's support system. Up until the time
when we were both I don't know, ready to go find somebody else or
something like that. Basically, best friends who just turned out to be gay both
so you know, why not have sex?
So by age 21, there was this conflict in me. On the one hand, I couldn't I was
like, okay, um, well, I'm bi, so I can be with guys all the time, but that would
mean that I'm gonna be continuously suppressing my urge towards girls,
which was very strong, and it was growing stronger, like every day. On the
other hand, I could not tell my mom any of this because either she'll be
disappointed in me. She'll be like, okay, Maria continue to suppress it or
something like that. Or she'll be like, "No, Maria, you're already 21 years old.
You're an adult. You can go do whatever you want. You can go sleep with
girls," but inside she'll be very, very disappointed and ashamed. She'll just not
say it, but she'll think that and she'll feel it. And I didn't want that.
So the question was, like, suppress myself, for the sake of my mom's approval,
not suppress myself, face her disappointment. Either way, not a pleasant
solution. So, after a lot of, you know, mental anguish that we Jews are known
for. True, right? So, I, I took my mom, I made an appointment with a shrink in
the city, an American shrink, right? And I went to the shrink with my mom, like, I
dragged her to it, because I was like, "Mom I need to tell you something." And
after, and, it was like this big, big dramatic thing once again, in that shrinks
office, right? Because, like, I started crying again, and hyperventilating and
stuff like that. And I even had to go outside to like, calm myself down and
whatever. And then I came back, and I was like, Mama, I love you. And I don't
want to disappoint you, like your approval means everything to me. But I like
girls, and I can't fight it anymore. You know, add all the tears and all that and
all that stuff.
And I wanted to do it in front of a shrink, who has a PHD. So the shrink can
immediately tell my mom, no, it's not a phase. And no, you know, it's not like an
abnormal thing, or whatever it is. So we can have the professional opinion in
the consultation, like right there. Right? So if I tell my mom, it's not a phase, it's
like who the hell am I? I'm no doctor? But if this PhD of psychology tells her? It's
an entirely different thing. She took it like much calmer, actually. Right? And so
you know, and I asked the shrink, like, is this a phase? Like, can you tell my
mom, is it a phase or not? She's like, "No, it's not a phase." And I'm like, "Mom,
I'm 21 years old. It's like, how can it be a phase by now if I've been experiencing
this since 11, 12, something like that." Right?
She took it. And she, at that time, she kind of, she calmed down about it. And
she believed me fully. Like she believed that, you know, that is indeed the
situation. There's nothing you can do about it really, and right and stuff. And I
guess, it also helps the fact that I told her I was bi, because I thought I was bi
at the time. So she's like, well, she likes girls. Let her experiment with girls, sleep
around, but you know, she's still gonna get married to a guy. And actually I
told her as much I'm like, "Yeah, I'm gonna sleep around with girls, party. And
then I'm gonna get married to a guy because I want to have a family," and so
on and so on. She's like, okay, you know, that's, that's not a problem. I mean, it's
unfortunate. That's not the best situation, but you know, we can deal with it.
She's still gonna give me grandkids. Yeah.
So then, it was like, Okay, this you know, this is a much better situation for me
nice and calm. But then it was pressing upon me to confess to my dad, which
I did. After you know, a little bit of Dutch courage.
AZ
Some drinking?
MG
Yes. So, because I was like, You know what, I'm not gonna hyperventilate, I'm
not gonna cry. And I'm not gonna go into hysterics again. I'll be calm, even if
it's chemically induced. So, like, yeah, that was, that was really interesting. Like,
he's sitting on the couch. Right. Watching soccer. I'm like, Papa, I want to talk
to you. Like, okay, talk to me. I'm like, Papa turn off the tv. I'm gonna talk to you.
He muted the soccer. Papa, look at me, I want to talk to you. It's important. He's
like, I'm listening. I'm listening. Like, okay. So I'm like, Papa, like girls. He's like, I
know. Like, what? How do you know this? Like, your mom told me when you
were 15? Yeah, my mom actually, like, as soon as I told her, way back when,
she called up my dad and she told him. And it's amazing that he's actually
very calm about it. Like, it's not like he doesn't think it's a big source of bother.
Especially seeing as at that time, I thought I was bi and my mom thought I
was bi. So my mom was like, yeah, she likes girls, but she also likes guys. So
my dad is like, okay, that's fine. You know, you know, as long as she likes, guys,
it's not a problem. Right?
So but, at the present moment, my mom has, you know, gotten used to it like
it's not like a big deal for her really. And it's my dad, he was, he was actually a
lot less, a lot less having problems with than my mom, like very much so. I-like
he was like, he doesn't really care, like, who do I sleep with or something like
that. As long as I make a family and stuff. So it was fine. Like it became like
very calm and stuff. But then I realized about, basically in November of 2006,
after having like sexual experiences with both girls and guys, like one after the
other pretty soon, you know, like concentrated. Like that, you know what, guys
don't do anything for me, not really. And, you know, it's girls that do. So I guess
I must be gay then, like, fully, you know, which was not such a big switch
because, like, I don't know, 80% towards girls and 100% towards girls? So not
such a big switch. So right now, I do identify as gay, because my, because you
know, of my experiences. And my, how do I say this? Like, pretty, pretty kind of
concrete definition. Sorry, concrete evidence that I don't like guys. And I do like
girls. Yeah, and I'm not going to say what because that would, that would be,
you know, the graphic part. So, let's see. That's about it. So I mean, did I cover
everything that you want me to?
AZ
Yeah. Right. Okay, so, let's go back to let's, let's go back to when you first
started thinking about girls. Did, did you think that about gender, about
yourself in any gender or how you dressed?
MG
Well, I always, I never thought of myself as a guy. Like, I always knew I was
female. But I always dressed in very loose clothing and either unisex or even
guys clothing. But it was not because like I wanted to be butch, it's because I
thought I was kind of fat. Like I had, like a, like relatively big stomach. And I
wanted to hide that fat. And I was really like, uncomfortable with my body, like
a lot of body issues. And because of that, right? It's just that I suppose if other
girls are uncomfortable with their bodies, and they wear loose clothing, they
will usually be wearing feminine loose clothing, whereas I wore just like T shirts
and sweatshirts and something that a guy would wear with no problem.
Right? Why? Because I just felt more comfortable in those kind of clothing. So
that has been my style since basically, day one, like loose clothing that, that is
either unisex or when guys pants and guys, not guys shirts but like sweatshirts,
right and T shirts.
And that style it was how do I say this? It was not, it was not determined by my
orientation. But at the same time, if I were straight, like as such, and I wanted
to attract the attention of guys, then I probably would be wearing more
feminine clothes and tighter clothes, even on my stomach because I would
be like you know, you know, why not? That's like show something, instead of
showing nothing. But seeing as I was really into girls and I didn't care much
about guys, I was not interested in attracting their attention. So it was not
important for me to wear tight clothes that would attract their attention and
for me to like appear on their radar as potential you know, dating candidates
you know?
AZ
Yeah, so as your self conception as a lesbian as it evolved, did your let's see,
how can I say this. Did your style change at all? Did you feel?
MG
Yes. Okay. My style like in high school was influenced by several factors. First
of all the fact that my parents didn't have a lot of money and I also didn't
want to take a lot of their money so I bought crap basically, like cheap crap
that looked bad. Brand name was something that happens for other people.
So cheap jeans from Kmart, guys jeans, like cheap sweatshirts for like five
bucks, things like that. So I look like a badly dressed guy basically. Right so, so
that, and I mean I could have bought cheap women, cheap girls clothes, you
know from things like pretty girl or you know, any, you know, like really cheap,
cheap, like, what's it called, even Kmart, cheap girls clothes. But I didn't feel
comfortable like showing my body.
So my style in high school was that cheap unisex clothes. Then when I went to
college, I started working and I started making some money. And I started
dressing a little bit better. Like also unisex clothes because I was just used to
that style and then because I still thought of myself as kind of always not
attractive, and unattractive. But more stylish mens clothes, like men's jeans
from Express for example, as opposed to Kmart or Old Navy, like more brand
name, you know, like nicer shirts instead of just crap. Right? Still kind of loose
and still something that a guy could wear also, but just nicer, nicer looking
and better fitting. Right. Ah, and that style continued to about. Well, basically,
up until now, and as I continued throughout college, I worked more, you know,
as I made more money. And I started just asking my mom for money to buy
more brand new things, like nicer things, but I still stuck to unisex slash male
clothes mostly, or at least kind of loose female clothes. Right, like nothing tight,
nothing that shows up anything. If you look at me in regular clothes, it would
be like, okay, the only way you can tell I'm female is you know, possibly boobs
and above the neck, you know. And you know, the shirt could be female, but it
would be loose female. The pants, you know, male pants.
So the quality of my clothes improved, and the fit and the style improved. But
the overall, overall kind of approach has remained the same. And right now, I
have lost some weight recently. So now I feel like I could wear like tight
feminine clothes and look appropriate in them and stuff, appropriate means
good. But I just don't choose to because first of all, I'm so used to wearing
loose clothes, that I'm just comfortable in things that are losing and not tight
fitting. And second of all, I don't feel like having my ass for display, you know,
to all and sundry, it's just I don't know, like, I prefer this kind of approach,
especially the school that I go to, which is City College. It's a, it's mostly there's
a lot of like Hispanics and blacks, there. And the neighborhood itself is
Spanish. And for a white girl tall, white girl, tall, skinny white girl in tight clothes
to be walking around in Spanish Harlem, late at night, in tight clothes. Ahhh,
no, not happening. So like, like, I don't want to attract that kind of attention,
because they are, in that neighborhood, and that setting in my college
specifically, it's very easy for me, like, you know, just by virtue of being exotic
for them, to attract that kind of attention and I don't want that.
Also, I feel like I get more respect, if I wear nice clothes, clothes that are like
brand new, and you see they fit nice and stuff, but they're loose. Because in
our society, women are evaluated on their appearance first and everything
else second. So if my appearance, you know, my shape is taken out of the
equation, then it ceases to be a components available of evaluation for me.
And when people, when I meet new people, they see me, okay, female, but
they don't check out you know, the assets and so on. And they don't make
their judgment based on that, they make their judgment based on their
actual interaction with me in whatever capacity that occurs. So, in that mirror,
I feel like, I could represent myself not as a set of, you know, the stuff but as
like a whole person, and males would be evaluating me as a whole person,
which is what I want.
And females also because girls also judge other girls by their appearance, not
in the sense oh, I want to like do her, but in the sense, you know, comparing to
themselves, I guess. So, in that- So I think that I'm definitely going to stick to
this like loose but now brand name and nice looking stuff. Because for me, it
was also in my chosen profession of engineer, there's not a lot of women. And
obviously. So and I feel like if you don't know, if you present yourself like in any
sexual manner to guys, then they will immediately see you like a something of
an object more or less, not entirely but to some degree, yes. And I don't want
to be seen as an object. Like at all, even like 1%. That's just not, at least not let's
say by just some random guys. You know, I mean, obviously, I want my
girlfriend to want me but not just some random guy in the street.
AZ
So do, you said that that you dress, or that you don't dress to please the male
gaze? Is there any sense in your clothing or how you dress and pleasing the
female gaze?
MG
I have no idea what pleases the female gaze. Well, I mean, okay, I know what
pleases me, but that's the same thing that pleases guys. So it's not, so it's not
like anything different, but I don't really know. I mean, my objective is not to
impress somebody with you know the beauty of my abs. But, like, you know, to
look presentable, clean cut, matching, like wearing quality clothes instead of
junk. It's like somebody, you know, that seems like smart and worthy of
respect. And I, and I think that, you know, my general clothes, they accomplish
that. And also like, lately, it's clothing has ceased to have very much
importance for me honestly, I do have feminine clothes, and I do wear them
when I go out and stuff. Like when I go into a club, I dress appropriately. Of
course, like short skirts, tight shit, the whole nine yards. But that's because the
setting demands it. You know, when you go to a restaurant, you know, I would
also wear like a dress and stuff like that.
But in general, in general, like I don't think I dress to please the female gaze. I
don't try to please, the female gaze means you're like looking for a girlfriend,
which I'm not because I have one. And when I didn't have one, I don't know.
Like, it didn't occur to me that if I dress like sexy, I would attract girls as well as
guys, so it just doesn't work. I don't know if that's the case. So no, not really, I
don't think so. I dress to please me most importantly, and in a manner that is
in accordance with the setting that I'm in. Meaning business casual, when it's
necessary, to college, I can wear whatever I wants, but you know, I wear like,
like nice, like, sort of brand name stuff. To a restaurant, I would wear
something appropriate, and so on and so on. So my objective in terms of
dressing is not to look sexy and not to look hot. And I mean, looking attractive,
yes, but attractiveness in the sense that, you know, I look put together. And my
appearance is fitting the setting, and it's considered normal and appropriate.
And it's like, yeah, that girl dresses nicely, like nothing special. But you know,
not that.
AZ
So this is maybe a little repetitive. But do you consciously use any signs in the
way you dress? Or maybe even the way you walk, or talk, to let other people
know that you're gay? Is that all important to you?
MG
Letting other people know is not important to me, per se. Because to me,
because that has never I mean, while that is a big part of my identity, I've
never been, let's say political about it. Like, you know, I've never been an
activist or anything of the sort. Like if people asked me, I would say girlfriend
and so on, but I don't but I don't you know, have like rainbow flags on my bed
or something. But on the other hand, my attitude, meaning the way I walk the
way I talk, the way I sit, like on a subway. Like if somebody like in the family
looks at me, they'll be like, yeah, she's probably gay. Yeah, because I really
don't have act that feminine. Like really. So, but on the other hand, if
somebody who looks at me who is not really straight and who doesn't have
much experience with gay people, they will, they will not really think gay, they
will be like no no, ithat girl is kind of I don't know nerdy or she's like kind of
eccentric or something like that. But they will not think gay, the reason they
will not think gay is because my hair is long. If my hair was short everybody
will think I'm a total dyke obviously because, for short when I say I don't mean
short as yours, I mean really really short because yours as you know still. Yes.
No, no, no, no short as in boy short Yeah, like that. Yes, I did have that
experience. I used to have like here like this long. This long. I'm showing like
two inches.
AZ
And um, did it, did people perceive and?
MG
Yeah like people mistook me for a guy like so. But actually, when I had my hair
that short, I dress really feminine to compensate so nobody would mistake
me for a guy because if I dress like the way I usually did with that short hair it
would be Sir, Sir, Sir all the time. But yeah, like, like one of my friends. She, she,
she figured out I was gay like, long before I told her because like, she knows a
lot of gay people and stuff like that. And if you want to know in any, any sort of
way, either you're friends with gay people, or you are yourself gay. You
definitely suspect like as soon as you look at me.
AZ
Right. So I'm interested in that you, you bought men's clothing, since you were
very young you said. Did you ever have the sense that that was transgressive?
MG
Because for me it was not. It was not like clothing was not really divided into,
like allowed women's clothes and disallowed mens clothes, it was like, Okay,
I'm not going to wear men's women's pants for the only reason that they are
too tight for my fat ass. And what is like, what jeans would be fitting for me,
meaning what jeans would be loose enough that they would like not show
anything men's jeans, if there was a line of women's clothes that was, well, first
of all, cheap, and second of all loose, I will get those, that will not be a
problem. In fact, I would prefer them because, you know, made for women,
they would fit better. And with mens schools, there were a lot of issues with
comfort and the crotch being too low with that and stuff like that, like because
of the cut. And it's been, what's my objective was not to, to present myself as
gay or to present myself as Butch or to I don't know, rebel or anything like that.
It was simply that is that was the only option of loose pants available to me, or
just who that is available to women period, that women's pants are tight, like
straight up, or at least in my estimation, that is the style currently. And that
was the style when I was younger. And if I don't like the style, then what else
must they turn to? I guess I was turning to I don't know, straight leg men's
pants or something like that. Which is what I did.
AZ
Okay let’s see. Um, just looking around, you’re in New York city, so you see
women all the time and do you, you probably evaluate them and try to guess,
that’s one of my favorite games. Um, is there a style that seems lesbian to
you? Like an iconic style?
MG
Well, if a woman looks really butch, then very likely she is lesbian right. And
you know, well not only looking butch because you can have like, like some 45
year old lady with really short hair from the midwest who is you know, maybe
kind of fat, so she’s wearing mens clothes because that’s the only thing that
will fit. And she’s married with three kids. I don’t mean like that. I mean, I mean,
like looks butch and acts butch and like kind of young and stuff. Obviously,
then that would be to me, not an iconic lesbian style because butches are I
think a minority if we take the lesbian population as a whole, they’re like one
minority of many other subdivisions. But, that is a distinguishably lesbian.
Because, any other style is like straight women wear it also. So it’s not like you
can be like, that is uniquely gay, besides the butch.
AZ
Okay….I guess that’s it, that’s all I have. Is there anything else you want to,
anything else you want to bring up?
MG
Hm, I’m probably not like the best interview subject, because my experiences
are not shaped by my orientation as much as a bunch of other things like
body issues and self esteem and socialization and blah blah blah. Uh, so, hm,
hopefully, I mean, ui don’t know if I’ll be a very accurate, how do I say this, like,
representative of the general population as a whole. Add to it the fact that I
like, am an immigrant with an immigrant mentality. So it’s, so you know, so, I
hope that you can find some American born lesbians who would like, with
normal social development and normal friendships and normal everything.
Whose clothing experiences were in fact shaped a lot by their orientation.
AZ
This is actually one of my questions, is how much really do lesbians care how
visible they are?
MG
Uh, well I cannot speak for all of them. And, okay, it’s like, it works the same
way as straight people. There’s a spectrum, obviously. On the one hand you
have the activists, you know, who march in the Dyke March and rainbow flags
all over the place and so on. Obviously they care very much about visibility.
On the other hand, you have just regular people who don’t really care very
much. Right, or, who cannot be very open about it because of their job or
something like that. Right and obviously you have people who are entirely in
the closet. So, I don’t know if you can say as whole. Obviously, all lesbians
would like to see more lesbians being visible, like on TV or something like that.
Like, that’s what’s up. But, themselves being visible? Mmm, I think that uh, only
a minority is actively concerned with being visible I guess, like the ones with a
more activist mentality. Uh, I don’t have that activist mentality. I don’t mind it,
but I’m not going to go around Spanish Harlem with like a rainbow flag
because that’s just asking for trouble. My friend got into trouble like, doing
that, even though she keeps doing that. Yeah, so, you know what? I can add
one more thing. I can, if you, if you don’t mind. I can tell you what I think about
the way lesbians dress as compared to the way straight women dress?
AZ
Please.
MG
Right. Uh, well, for lesbians’ appearance, like their physical appearance. Is
definitely less important in my opinion than it is for straight women. Because
straight women are ought to get men, who are very visual and for whom the
physical, visual appearance is the make it or break it point, at least initially. So
they’re like, you know, we need to look nice, we need to bring everything to the
table and so on and so on. Uh, for lesbians, seeing as they’re trying to get
women, and women are not so visual, it’s more of a like, they make their
choice like in partner and fuckbuddy and whatever it is, based on the
interaction they have with that person and so on. There, the appearance
becomes less important. So, lesbians, they would, they would probably wear,
probably looser clothing or uh, less mainstream clothing, like more punk style
or something like that. Uh, or more, you know, just not be as tremendously
concerned about presenting their assets, continuously to the entire world.
Because of the, their kind of target market, as it were.
AZ
And just the innate, uh… the innate way that women…
MG
Yeah, like that’s why gay guys are so appearance oriented, right, because
their target market it guys who are appearance oriented. So, you know, if you
wanna, if you want to like market yourself successfully to them, then you have
to uh, look good. And probably that's why straight guys are, can let
themselves go, you know and wear crap and have beer bellies and so on,
because they know women will not be evaluating them based on whether
they have a six pack or not, but based on what they say and what they do
and how much money they make, and so on and so on.
AZ
Okay, very good. Thank you.