1
999
7
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/178/SPW497_Debra.jpg
d740104a1b292062746f7d0ebe4cf82b
Omeka Image File
The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files.
Bit Depth
8
Channels
3
Height
2448
Width
3264
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/178/SPW497_Debra_A.wav.mp3
cd4748342fbbe9bab9ed54dcb1a9d956
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/178/SPW497_Debra_B.wav.mp3
88c27752f04b6859ff53d63598288602
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Buffalo Women's Oral History Project, 1978-1990
Description
An account of the resource
Part-ethnography and part-history, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy is an intimate history of a lesbian community in Buffalo, New York. It combines the ethnographic method of a rigorous study of a single community’s culture and identity, along with the historian’s urge to analyze the specific forces that shape these communities over time. In terms of primary sources, this historical analysis relied on the Buffalo Women’s Oral History Project. This extensive oral history project began in 1978 and extended through the next 13 years. Interview subjects were working-class lesbian women from Buffalo, New York who described their experiences during the period from the mid-1930s to the early 1960s.
These recordings of interviews with working-class lesbians are rich with wisdom, insight and emotion. Interviews discuss a wide range of topics including butch/femme roles, gendered sexuality, relationships, family dynamics, the bar scene, religion, realization of homosexuality, coming out, lesbian mothers, oppression, police brutality, race, gay rights movements, women in the military, youth, and identity. They offer dynamic first-person perspectives of the place and time before the emergence of the gay and lesbian liberation movements. From these stories surface the personal struggles and triumphs of the lesbian community during an intensely oppressive time.
These interviews were donated to the archives by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy and were subsequently digitized by students from the Pratt Institute, Projects in Digital Archives class, LIS-665.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Debra, February 20, 1980 (Tape 1)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lesbians
Lesbians Conduct of Life
Lesbians--Employment
Lesbians--Family Relationships
Lesbians--Social Life and Customs
Lesbians--United States--Interviews
Lesbians--United States--Identity
Lesbians--United States--Social conditions
Lesbians--New York (State)--Buffalo--History--20th Century
Lesbians--New York (State)--Buffalo--Social Conditions
Lesbianism--United States
Lesbianism--Social Aspects
Lesbianism--United States-- History
Roles--Butch and Femme
Lesbian and Gay Experience
Gay Bars
Discrimination
Religion
Lesbians--Romantic Relationships
Interracial Couples
Lesbians of Color
Gay Men
Hair
Fashion
Description
An account of the resource
Debra discusses her experiences as a lesbian. She talks about her first lesbian relationship when she was 12, how she was married for one day, how her mother knew something was different about her, and how her sister figured out she was a lesbian because she was only married for one day.
She talks about her relationships with women, how she never openly acknowledged that she was gay but if she was asked she wouldn’t deny it.
They discuss monogamy, she was mostly faithful, but she also talks about jealous partners and how when one is accused of things, one might as well and go ahead and do it.
She doesn’t believe that a lesbian relationship is any different than a straight relationship.
They discuss bars and areas in Buffalo that she would frequent: Moon Glow bar, Pearls bar, Ralph Martins, Ryan’s Hotel, Little Harlem. They also discuss dating rituals, fashion, and relationship/ courting roles.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Debra (Interviewee)
Madeline Davis (Interviewer)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
SPW497_Debra_A
SPW497_Debra_B
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Lesbian Herstory Archives
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1980, February 20
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
Digitized 2013, May 20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="/omeka/rights-statement" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> See the LHA Copyright Statement </a>
Relation
A related resource
Tape one of a two tape series recorded in 1980. Succeeded by SPW498.
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Kennedy, E. L. & Davis, M. D. (1993). Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold: The History of a Lesbian Community. New York: Routledge
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Original = Cassette Tape
MP3
WAV
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
Side A = 29:46 minutes
Side B = 29:38 minutes
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
PhysicalObject
Oral History Interview
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SPW497
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Buffalo, NY
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
20th Century
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Lesbian Herstory Archives, Contact Designation: Maxine Wolfe, Contact Address: 484 14th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11215, Phone Number: 718-768-3953
Butch and Femme
Discrimination
Employment
Fashion
Gay Bars
Lesbians
Madeline Davis
Relationships
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/64/379/kay_ohara_gerrie_morrison.jpg
2c3c36ee308d9474fa0e4f44ab7407f9
Omeka Image File
The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files.
Width
312
Height
236
Bit Depth
8
Channels
3
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/64/379/Kay_OHara_Gerrie_Morrison_tape2of2_19881020.mp4
8b6952188e5072cd3f883011ff2fbeab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
LHA Daughters of Bilitis Video Project: Kay O'Hara & Gerrie Morrison, 1988
Description
An account of the resource
<strong>Kay O'Hara</strong><br />Raised in Chicago, Kay realized she was lesbian during her school years, around 1953. While being forced to hide her orientation, both she and her lover experienced severe harassment, both from Kay’s ex-husband, and her lover’s family. Threatened with imprisonment and admittance into a psychiatric hospital, Kay and her partner fled Chicago to San Francisco, thanks to the kindness of friends and a savvy attorney by the name of Pearl Hart, who was responsible for giving Kay her first copy of The Ladder. Kay encountered the Daughters of Bilitis about five months after her move to San Francisco, where she found one of the first ‘Gab & Java’ meetups in 1958. That same year, she met her life partner, Gerrie, although the two weren’t a couple until they re-met in 1971. Kay remained involved in the DOB until about 1960, when she moved to the Bay Area and re-entered school. Post-degree, she began to teach at the community college, and although she remained very interested in politics and being politically active, her career wasn’t one to safely allow her involvement. <strong><br /><br />Gerrie Morrison<br /></strong> Gerrie grew up in a very religiously dominated community in Utah, the middle of five children. While her mother always joked that “she had 2 ½ girls, and 2 ½ boys,” Gerrie knew from an early age that she wasn’t ever going to be interested in boys romantically, but it wasn’t until she finished school entirely that she entered her first relationship. Post graduate school, she was working in a hospital where she encountered a lesbian patient who, due to personal strife, committed suicide. While calling to console the deceased’s roommate, she was introduced to the Daughters of Bilitis’ ‘Gab & Java’ meet-ups. She continued to work in the health profession, and like her partner, Kay, remained interested in politics and politically activism, though she was unable to fully participate due to her career.
Technical Video Recording
Metadata elements specific to Video Recordings, taken from PBCore and LC-AV (interoperable with METSRights) to supplement Dublin Core.
Digital Format*
Preservation: .AVI with DV Codec, Access: .MP4
Physical Format
VHS
Date Digitized
2014-03-10
Duration*
01:29:57
File Size
.AVI: 20.11 GB, .MP4: 293 MB
Data Rate
16 bit/32 kHz
Aspect Ratio
4:3
Frame Rate*
29.97
Resolution
.AVI: 720 x 480, .MP4: 320 x 240
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kay O'Hara and Gerrie Morrison, Tape 2 of 2, October 20, 1988
Description
An account of the resource
Kay O'Hara and Gerrie Morrison are interviewed in 1988. They comment on a series of slides and photographs of members of DOB.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Interviewer: N/A, Interviewee: Kay O'Hara and Gerrie Morrison
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Lesbian Herstory Archives
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1988-10-20
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Pratt Institute, School of Information and Library Science, LIS 668 Moving Image and Sound Archiving students. Edited by Morgan Gwenwald, Manuela Soares, Sara Yaeger.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="/omeka/rights-statement" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> See the LHA Copyright Statement </a>
Language
A language of the resource
en
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Video Recording, Oral History
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Physical: MV-50, Digital: ohara_morrison_tape2of2_19881020
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Suisun, CA
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Lesbian Herstory Archives, Contact Designation: Maxine Wolfe, Contact Address: 484 14th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11215, Phone Number: 718-768-3953
Fashion
Friendship
Gerrie Morrison
Images
Kay O'Hara
The Ladder
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/7/452.jpg
1b97a6320c3b91d7f6dfcd0cdd51f321
Omeka Image File
The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files.
Bit Depth
8
Channels
3
Height
1200
Width
1800
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/7/SPW452_MARYANN_A.wav.mp3
20c06dfacbfd6e62ffb9fef31aee82a5
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/7/SPW452_MARYANN_B.wav.mp3
0c5152aeab811d58ac3c545ac8b09348
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Buffalo Women's Oral History Project, 1978-1990
Description
An account of the resource
Part-ethnography and part-history, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy is an intimate history of a lesbian community in Buffalo, New York. It combines the ethnographic method of a rigorous study of a single community’s culture and identity, along with the historian’s urge to analyze the specific forces that shape these communities over time. In terms of primary sources, this historical analysis relied on the Buffalo Women’s Oral History Project. This extensive oral history project began in 1978 and extended through the next 13 years. Interview subjects were working-class lesbian women from Buffalo, New York who described their experiences during the period from the mid-1930s to the early 1960s.
These recordings of interviews with working-class lesbians are rich with wisdom, insight and emotion. Interviews discuss a wide range of topics including butch/femme roles, gendered sexuality, relationships, family dynamics, the bar scene, religion, realization of homosexuality, coming out, lesbian mothers, oppression, police brutality, race, gay rights movements, women in the military, youth, and identity. They offer dynamic first-person perspectives of the place and time before the emergence of the gay and lesbian liberation movements. From these stories surface the personal struggles and triumphs of the lesbian community during an intensely oppressive time.
These interviews were donated to the archives by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy and were subsequently digitized by students from the Pratt Institute, Projects in Digital Archives class, LIS-665.
Sound
A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio.
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
tape cassette
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Side A: 46:32
Side B: 46:32
MP3 Files
Links to Oral History mp3 files
<br />
<h4><a href="/mp3_files/SPW452_MARYANN_A.wav.mp3" target="_blank">Download Side A</a></h4>
<h4><a href="/mp3_files/SPW452_MARYANN_B.wav.mp3" target="_blank">Download Side B</a></h4>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mary Ann, October 15, 1988 (Tape 1)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Prostitution
Lesbian parents
Lesbians--Identity
Lesbian Community--New York (State)
Lesbian and Gay Experience
Lesbian bars
Clothing
Discrimination
Description
An account of the resource
Side A: Mary Ann discusses her experiences going out in public with her girlfriends, and the treatment they receive at restaurants, bars, and on the street. She mentions that their public treatment is very often instigated by the masculine way her partners are dressed; she herself has always been very femme. Mary Ann talks about her incarceration for robbery, and her time in a psychiatric hospital for depression and attempted suicide.
Side B: Mary Ann continues to discuss her time in jail. She took on a butch look, and began to receive small gifts under her cell door from femme girls in other divisions. She developed relationships with different girls that she worked with while in jail, and talks about lookouts, or "chickies," standing watch for girls who were with their partners in the showers or elsewhere. She then talks about her sex life with a long-term partner of 22 years, with whom she raised foster children. Later, she touches on her job as a dancer at Buffalo clubs, and a two-year period when she worked as a prostitute.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mary Ann
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Lesbian Herstory Archives
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1988-10-15
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2011-10
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Pratt Institute, School of Information and Library Science, 665 Projects in Digital Archives Students
Relation
A related resource
This recording is 1 of 2 tapes recorded with Mary Ann on 1988-10-15.
Is Format Of
A related resource that is substantially the same as the described resource, but in another format.
tape cassette "SPW452 Mary Ann"
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Kennedy, E. L. & Davis, M. D. (1993). Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold: The History of a Lesbian Community. New York: Routledge
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
Side A: 46:32
Side B: 46:32
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
mpeg
wav
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Oral History Interview
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SPW# 452
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Buffalo, N.Y.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Lesbian Herstory Archives, Contact Designation: Maxine Wolfe, Contact Address: 484 14th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11215, Phone Number: 718-768-3953
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="/omeka/rights-statement" target="_blank"> See the LHA Copyright Statement </a>
Bars
Fashion
Identity
Lesbian Mothers
Sex Work & Sex Workers
Suicide
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/13/461.jpg
672b9c9711a0cee28423fca4b3f7be58
Omeka Image File
The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files.
Bit Depth
8
Channels
3
Height
2036
Width
3054
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/22/13/SPW461_Mary_T_B.wav.mp3
9d405815e6afe34fece0250fb58dd406
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Buffalo Women's Oral History Project, 1978-1990
Description
An account of the resource
Part-ethnography and part-history, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy is an intimate history of a lesbian community in Buffalo, New York. It combines the ethnographic method of a rigorous study of a single community’s culture and identity, along with the historian’s urge to analyze the specific forces that shape these communities over time. In terms of primary sources, this historical analysis relied on the Buffalo Women’s Oral History Project. This extensive oral history project began in 1978 and extended through the next 13 years. Interview subjects were working-class lesbian women from Buffalo, New York who described their experiences during the period from the mid-1930s to the early 1960s.
These recordings of interviews with working-class lesbians are rich with wisdom, insight and emotion. Interviews discuss a wide range of topics including butch/femme roles, gendered sexuality, relationships, family dynamics, the bar scene, religion, realization of homosexuality, coming out, lesbian mothers, oppression, police brutality, race, gay rights movements, women in the military, youth, and identity. They offer dynamic first-person perspectives of the place and time before the emergence of the gay and lesbian liberation movements. From these stories surface the personal struggles and triumphs of the lesbian community during an intensely oppressive time.
These interviews were donated to the archives by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy and were subsequently digitized by students from the Pratt Institute, Projects in Digital Archives class, LIS-665.
Sound
A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio.
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
tape cassette
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
46:44
MP3 Files
Links to Oral History mp3 files
<br />
<h4><a href="/mp3_files/SPW461_MARY_A.wav.mp3" target="_blank">Download Side A</a></h4>
<h4><a href="/mp3_files/summer2012/SPW461_Mary_T_B.wav.mp3" target="_blank">Download Side B</a></h4>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mary T., July 7, 1978 (Tape 2)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lesbian Bars
Lesbian and gay experience
Lesbian Community--New York (State)
Lesbians--Clothing
Description
An account of the resource
Mary describes the bar scene, parties, fashion, music, bar layouts, and fights at Bingo's and Carousel bars.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mary T.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Lesbian Herstory Archives
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
1978-07-07
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2011-11
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Pratt Institute, School of Information and Library Science, 665 Projects in Digital Archives Students
Relation
A related resource
This recordings is 2 of 2 tapes recorded with Mary T on 1978-07-07.
Is Format Of
A related resource that is substantially the same as the described resource, but in another format.
tape cassette "SPW461 Mary T"
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
Kennedy, E. L. & Davis, M. D. (1993). Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold: The History of a Lesbian Community. New York: Routledge
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
46:44
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
mpeg
wav
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Oral History Interview
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SPW# 461
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Buffalo, N.Y.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1957-1961
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Lesbian Herstory Archives, Contact Designation: Maxine Wolfe, Contact Address: 484 14th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11215, Phone Number: 718-768-3953
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="/omeka/rights-statement" target="_blank"> See the LHA Copyright Statement </a>
Bars
Clubs
Fashion
Identity
Music
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/e2e4f319dccd78d7dc2909d7db03f89e.pdf
8ffe24e99ede33a2a247cca743dfa75d
PDF Text
Text
Alaina Zulli
This is Alaina Zulli interviewing [redacted] goes by [redacted] on May 31 2007,
in Bobst library. Okay, so [redacted], let's start with your background. Tell me
where you were born. Then about your family.
Anonymous
Excuse me, I was born in New York City, Beth Israel hospital. I am the last born
out of four children, two boys, two girls. My mom is a single, single mother.
Unfortunately my dad was at the time I was born children. My dad,
unfortunately my my father was killed in some kind of confrontation with
somebody. So I never really knew my dad. I have a stepfather who raised us
who I kind of recognise as my dad because he's the only father figure I've
known. And we grew up in Brooklyn, Park Slope, excellent neighbourhood.
Should have stayed there. Guess that kind of answers a lot. And I, I mainly
grew up with just my sister, just me and my sister. My two brothers were
actually raised with my grandmother. I believe my mom probably had them
when she was really young. So they grew up with my grandmother. It was cool
like, we, we lived in a household where it was just the four of us. Unfortunately,
my mom has a my mom has a mental condition. She's diagnosed as being
schizophrenic. So that was a little weird sometimes, you know, my mom was
kind of always in and out of hospital. I actually when I was born, I was born
with what's called CAH, it stands for congenital adrenal hyperplasia. It actually
means I'm missing an enzyme in my body, my Adrenaline gland doesn't
produce a certain enzyme. And I was actually also born with ambiguous
genitalia. Which, as most people know, my sometimes I think about it when I
was born, you know, most babies when they're born, they like you have a you
have a girl you have a boy, I picture when I was born, it's like you have a Okay.
Wait a minute, give us a second, we'll get back to you. So, unfortunately, I I was
always in and out of the hospital myself, you know, young kind of went
through a series of reconstructive surgeries, which I think also kind of answers
a lot in terms of my sexual orientation. You know, being being a lesbian, being
�Butch, you know, based on just my overall appearance, you know, I have
unfortunate have higher testosterone levels, which gives me a more
androgynous Look, when people could kind of think that, you know, I'm a
female, but I'm not quite sure.
Alaina Zulli
Well, you have facial hair, which to many people is a clear indication.
Anonymous
Yeah, I mean, but nowadays with so many you know, transgender people, like
some people not too sure whether it's facial hair due to you know, hormones,
right. And, you know, the whole transition over
AZ
So were you raised as a girl or a boy?
Anonymous
I was raised as a girl as a girl, my mom put [compensated?] little dresses on
me and, and stuff, but I think what was unique about my mom was that she, I
think, because I was born with this condition she didn’t really enforce a lot of
like, she didn't, when we went out, I if it was a family event, she put a dress on
me. But really, I played with I played with cars, Star Wars figures, action figures,
I never really had dolls, like my sister was more though, the doll and makeup
type, you know, I played with cars, trucks, I was very active. You know, I would, I
was always jumping around, you know, just like a little boy, I was jumping
around. All my friends were boys. I really never had any little girls as friends. So
I think my mom kind of, you know, growing up, which was, I guess, good. She
never enforced it on me. You know, except for family events. You know? So
that was I think that was really good. In terms of, you know, my upbringing, I
wasn’t a kind of, you know, forced to be this little girl. I just grew up as a
regular child, you know, just enjoying the everyday life of just being a child
�AZ
Let you find yourself and just be yourself.
Anonymous
Yeah, I it's funny because I look back and I know you know, people I always ask
about, you know, when when's the first time you realise you a lesbian. And I
think back and I had to be like seven years old, in the second grade, like, I
used to have a crush on my second grade teacher. And I used to follow her
everywhere, like, you know, when the kids would go to lunch, and I never had
to go to lunch with the kids like I would, she would, I would have lunch with her.
She would take me rollerskating on the weekends. And I slept over her house
one time, but you know, I'm seven years old, and I'm thinking like, yes, sleeping
with this older woman. You know, and then, of course, you know, not every now
and then her boyfriend would tag along, and I will kind of get mad at him, you
know, go rollerskating. And I would kind of knock him down because I didn't
want him to be around. And then she got married, she announced to the class
that she was getting married. And she invited the whole class to her wedding.
And I refused to go. I was so upset. I was devastated. I was like, Oh, my God, I
just lost this woman in my life. And, you know, my mom kind of was trying to
force me to go and I was like, oh, no, no. So I kind of, I always think back and I
was like, wow, like, that was my first like, experience with, you know, like, loving,
not well, not loving, but you know, like, being attracted to another woman.
AZ
Sure. Yeah.
Anonymous
And I guess from Park Slope, we move to the Lower East Side, which was pretty
bad. It wasn't that bad. You know, we still should’ve stayed in Park Slope.
�AZ
Give me a timeframe for when you moved.
Anonymous
We moved when I was about 11 years old. Okay. So, at 11 we moved because
the building that we lived in was being sold. And so my mom just decided, you
know, we should move. So we wound up moving to the lower Eastside in
Manhattan, and it was good there. It was, I think it was also another confusing
time, because there I kind of developed more female friends. You know, like, I
even though I still kind of did boyish things. I had, I started having my female
friends like my best friend. From that moment on she, you know, we were
close. You know, I kind of really didn't look at her in a way that was like, you
know, why I'm attracted to girls. But all her other friends I did. And her sister.
AZ
All the other male friends you mean. Wait, you mean all your male friends
looked over that way?
Anonymous
No, I looked at her other female friends. Like, you know, like, hey, what’s up.
And it was just weird because she would always get me because we were
best friends. I she would always kind of duped me into like, you know, going
out with a guy. Which was, you know, also as confusing because I used to
think, well, well, this is what girls are supposed to do. Like dating. Yeah, like
dating. Like, she wouldn't be interested in some guy. And of course, his friend
would be there. So it's kind of like, you know why I want to be with him. So you
got to be with him. And I kind of felt you know, I think I made a lot of sacrifices
for my friend kind of like going in and just, you know, dating these these guys.
And I guess it wasn't really until I was probably 13. There use there used to be a
military Cadet that was ran by the center precinct. And my brothers actually,
when they were younger, they used to go there. And I wanted to go so they
�finally at one point, they kind of banned girls from being there, I guess
because of some altercation, but they started letting them back in. And I went,
and it was awesome. Because there I met this young woman. I don't know if
I've mentioned her name.
AZ
Well, you can you can choose not to have her name ever. Really?
Anonymous
Well, her name was Selena. And she, you know, she then became my kind of,
like, secret gay friend. You know, we both came out to each other, which was
cool. You know, like, I was like, you know, I you know, when you're young you
kind of feel like you know about you've heard terms, you know, lesbian and
gay. But you never really impact impacts you until you actually meet you
know, somebody that's just like you just like everybody kind of feel like you're
alone until you meet somebody. And we came out to each other then we
started discovering that there was other, you know, lesbians and actually
bisexuals at the time. And in our cadet, you know, which was cool because I
felt like you know, not only was I interested in this kind of military cadet, but
you know, it was also surrounded by, you know, my people, my kind of
discovering a whole new community. And I remember when we, we got on our
bikes one weekend and we kind of went kind of girl hunting. You know, we
were like 13, 14 years old. And we we got on our bikes and we went to it was
about this time, and we ran into all these gay people, like right around here
actually around Washington Square Park, it was we kind of got lost, we didn't
know we were going. We just We just heard that, you know, there are, you
know, gay people in the village. So we, you know, ventured out into the village
to go look for, you know, gay people. And girls. And we had just missed the
Pride Parade. Hmm. You know, so when you would, you know, we're riding our
bikes, and we see like, you know, drones of like women, you know, and girls
and other like, we at first we didn't know what what it was until we actually
�saw what gave it away is we saw some butch women so like, oh, yeah, we
found, we found our Mecca. And we had, we said, Hold this, this has got to be,
you know, there are a bunch girls. So that means there's got to be, you know,
you know, girls that we like femme girls around here. So we proceeded to dry
it, you know, to ride around on our bikes. And we found these, we found these
two girls who were 19 years old, of course, we lied about our age, we said we're
like 17 years old. And we, you know, proceeded to like kind of walk with them,
you know, hitting on them, and, you know, just kind of asking questions. And
after that just became our new, a new hangout spot. And from there, you
know, as I started going to cadets so I was going to I started going from my
timetable was a little screwed up
AZ
That’s ok. When you, if you can clarify. What your age, there abouts
Anonymous
Um, I would say like about between 15 and 16 is when like I started discovering
the village. And you know, we me and my friends then found out about
because I didn't realise that she was part of a youth group, which was called
Project Reach. And in the youth group, they dealt with social issues that was
like kind of my first interaction with a socialisation group where they spoke
about not only lesbian and gay issues, but issues around sexism and
homophobia, and, you know, classes and as well. So I learned a lot going
there just also, once again, just being around, you know, even tighter
community where people that are more of my age rather than me trying to
perpetrate and, you know, oh, they're lesbian trying to pick up all the women.
And from there we we started interacting with our Hetrick Martin Hetrick Martin
Institute, which is actually located here on Astor Place. It's probably one of the
largest gay and lesbian youth groups. It's also located the Harvey Milk schools
there also
�AZ
Oh I think I've seen that. Yeah, can you? Well, later, you’ll have to write that for
me. But Hetrick Martin
Anonymous
At first, they were located by the West Side Highway, but where what people
call the pier. Yes. So they were located there. So project reach was actually
interacting with other youth groups. So once again, my community and I
started seeing that this community is a lot larger. And then we started doing
work with the yes group for Richmond services, which is part of the gay and
lesbian center. So we started doing going over there and networking. And
once I got to the center, I was just, like, amazed, like a whole building just
dedicated for us. And we, that became our new hangout spot. You know, so
about, like, 17 going into 16 going into 17 that became a new, a new hangout
spot, which was actually the corner of 13th Street and Seventh Avenue
AZ
Place. I know
Anonymous
Yeah, yeah. So we used to all kind of that would be the meeting spot. So one
person would like 2 people would get there and then you would wait for the
rest of us, you know, the rest of the people so probably like about six seven
o'clock there was about close to 20 young people there lesbian young people
AZ
And you just stand around on the corner
Anonymous
Yeah, we would all meet up at the corner and then decide what we're gonna
do, which always resulted in ending up at the pier. So we would track down,
�walk down Seventh Avenue, till we got to the beginning of Christopher Street.
And of course, it would take us like two hours just to walk down the block.
Because we would stop and see people we know. And stop at stores, you
know, and, of course, it was all about fashion, even when I was younger, you
know, we used to stop and look at the stores and the clothing. You know,
because back then there used to be a lot of, I think it happens now. But
unfortunately, I'm kind of out of the loop, there used to be a lot of one was
called balls, balls. Yeah, they were basically many fashion shows that there
was small communities or houses that were ran by, you know, kind of, they
had mothers, which were predominantly like gay men, and by House fathers,
which was sometimes, you know, the butcher, lesbians, or sometimes they
would just be a gay. Another gay gentleman that was, I guess, a little bit more
butcher than the mother. And they would hold these balls, these kind of, kind
of mini fashion shows, and people would walk, like literally walk down this
catwalk for different categories. So some would run down, some would walk
for categories that we would call face, which will cover like you had a girl face.
So some of the most feminine gay boys would walk for that category, or they
had what was called boy realness. And some of the butch women would
actually walk in the whole thing was about passing. It was like, we had our
own little kind of fashion Yeah, show, which I don't know if you've ever seen the
movie. And you may want to pick it up, it's called Paris is burning.
Paris is burning actually talks about the beginnings of the whole ball thing
happened like in the early like, 80s. And, I don't know, if you've also ever seen
that show America's Top Model, Tyra Banks, yeah, she actually has a
gentleman in there, his name is Willi
Ninja. And his house was actually called the House of Ninja. And he was the
head mother, and they, he actually teaches these these models how to walk,
how to walk down the runway. So, we would go to these different balls
whenever we found out and we would go in and we would cheer for different
people that will walk different different categories. And, you know, we will go
�shopping with some people because, you know, you needed to have the
latest and greatest clothes. And I think the probably I used to have the most
fun when I used to go with the, with the boys, the Gay Boys, because they went
by, you know, they would buy these extravagant, you know, dresses, and they
would so funny, they would, they would buy them and keep the tabs on them,
you know, because it was so expensive. Yeah. And then they would use it in a
ball and then have it dry cleaned, and then return the return the dress
AZ
So would they buy, like down in Soho, they would get designer clothes
Anonymous
They would get either in Soho, depending on how much money they had, you
know, like you know, depending on where were they unfortunately, some of
them were street workers. So they would get money that way some of them
sold drugs, you know. So, a lot of lots of times I would also go to we would go
and go to different thrift shops and kind of put together these ensembles of
different clothes. Which weren’t bad, you know, you could find like really hot
clothes in a thrift store and still look still a good like I love thrift stores. And so
we would go and go to these different ball scenes and stuff. And it was it was
awesome
AZ
That's this is fascinating. Okay, so tell me more about the houses. Was it like
those shelters?
Anonymous
No, no, no, they were just like groups
AZ
They were just like social groups
�Anonymous
Yeah, they were just social groups. So you were associated like, you know
each house was known for different you know, they will have these you will go
to these balls. And they will be like, you know, like the top winners. You know,
they would kind of make their own houses. So they were like the best and in
their in you know, whatever category they were. And it was like, you know, I
want to call them almost like gay gangs. Yeah, you know, where you will
belong to a specific house right they have the house of ninja they have the
house of Pandora's, they have the house extravaganza. And, you know, there
was all these people that were part of it. Matter of fact, if you ever seen
Madonna's blonde Blonde Ambition tour, where she did the the whole voguing
thing there. And there's three gentlemen that she actually has in there that
were part of those houses and Madonna herself would actually sometimes
appear at these mini balls, you know, which sometimes would be held at, I
been to 2 of them one time that were held at the sound factory. Back then the
rumor was that Madonna actually owned the part of the sound factory Junior
Vasquez which was a famous DJ and still is used to DJ there. And she would
come and that's actually where she found some of her dancers from this from
this ball scene, and they would go now back then there was this whole
voguing kind of scene. You know which people were done in in the houses
AZ
Can you explain voguing?
Anonymous
Voguing is a dance style that originated I think originated out of the ball
scene. And it could be anything from like, like hand gestures to the way they
move, you know, the way they move their hands and they the way they would
pose. Voguing actually came out of there and then people would do these
moves these dance moves that were just kind of like voguing is a is a is I think
�a cross between dancing and posing. And it's kind of a little hard to explain it
where it's easier to see. Unfortunately, I'm butch so I don’t know how to vogue
voguing was more voguing was more you know, kind of like the gay guys
then. So I didn't unfortunately, I didn’t kind of I'm really bad at it. I tried the one
time terrible. But it was it was nice. Like, you know, I really think that that's
where my thing of fashion came from. You know, being around the gay young
people and everything, everything was about fashion. Everything was about
fashion like back then we used to call it used to be called labels. And there
was even a category for that you even walked for you walk down this runway
for you know, your category that you were walking for was called labels. And it
was about who had the best clothes on the most the most expensive clothes
or even you know the most of the time it kind of fell in the category of the
most expensive clothes or even the somebody would get a Louis Vuitton you
know shirt or something or Versace pants you know, I don't I'm not too sure
how big bootlegging was back then and they actually really weren't Yeah,
these designer these designer clothes but the most of the time they were you
know, but it was it was good. You know that actually from there I wanted to
actually apply for fashion industries High School. I was the only person in my
junior high school actually got accepted to fashion industries. I actually went
in for merchandising someone to design in I wanted to design like a Windows
like displays. And that that became also because a movie mannequin where
he you know, created these extravagant window displays. And I could always
remember a few of my friends going and just seeing you know, the Macy's
windows, Bloomingdale's, Windows, or even the way that display the way the
clothes are put together. Unfortunately, they work too well with me. I got into a
lot of fights
AZ
At the school itself?
Anonymous
�In fashion industries. Yeah. I think you know, because, because I'm
androgynous I used to always get, you know, are you a girl or are you a boy
and guys, of course, you know, didn’t like, the fact that I think that they didn't
know, or, you know, if they figured out I was a (barrow?) it was like, Oh, well,
you know, she's a lesbian, she Butch, you know, so that became a problem. So
my mom transferred me out of the school and kind of put me in my zone
school, which happened to be two blocks away, which was through a part of
high school
AZ
And this was in the Lower East Side
Anonymous
Yes, the Lower East Side. It was literally three blocks away from my house,
which sucks because I could never cut class without getting caught. And that
school was good. I remember being there. And I remember there used to be
this one young woman that stood out she kind of stood to herself. And to this
day, like I kinda see her but really, I know her because of who she is. You know,
in terms of knowing somebody from school, but not really kind of creating a
relationship with them. Her name was Lee, and she was like, she made me
look femme so much. Like she was like Butch all the way. And I can remember
like seeing her, like, get a lot of, you know, like a lot of shit in school. Because,
you know, sexuality and just the way she looked like she had her head shaved,
which, back then I guess really wasn't acceptable for young women, you
know. And she's got a lot of us and I used to feel so bad. And, you know, I used
to always want to kind of rate reach out, but I always felt, the whole safety
thing where I kind of didn't want to put myself in that position because I just
felt like I got a lot of shit for just looking where I was. And I didn't even have a
shaved head. And I didn't really be as butch she was, you know, they kind of
just associated with me being Butch because the way I dressed I didn't dress
feminine. I dressed in jeans, sneakers, you know t-shirt.
�AZ
What was your hair like?
Anonymous
My hair was short, kind of the way it is now. And then I like as fashion started
changing, I let my hair grow. I kind of had this Steven Seagal type haircut
going on with a, I had a ponytail that kind of grew back. And I think a lot of that
happened because my friend started growing her hair that way. And since we
were so tight, we kind of brought it the same the same way. And we we just
continued going in the village and I remember there was a prom. They had a
prom. Unfortunately, when I graduated high school, I couldn't attend my prom.
I mean, I could have but there was the whole thing on you know, being stared
at what was I going to wear? You know, like, can I go there wearing a tuxedo
and have to get shit about it? Or do I have to wear a dress?
AZ
Were there any official rules about it?
Anonymous
There wasn’t. I mean, I think that never really is because I don't think they can
enforce it
AZ
They do it in some states. But I don't know of any…
Anonymous
In terms of the girls having to dress?
AZ
Like a girl can’t go with a girl basically
�Anonymous
I don't think I was worried about bringing anybody. If I would have went I
probably would have went with my with my friend Josephine, which was my
best friend that used to make me date boys, who was kind of devastated
after she found out that I started you know, being with girls, and she used to
always taunt me with Madonna used to have the song, La Isla Bonita. And in
the song she talks about when a girl loves a boy and a boy loves a girl. So my
friend used to, you know, every time that part came, like emphasize it. She will
look at me and go when a girl loves a boy and a boy loves a girl.
AZ
After you came out to her?
Anonymous
After I came out. But um, she I think she was just doing that because she was
just teasing me. You know, like she was really cool I didn’t unlike, unlike most
people's experiences, and I'd say mine coming out was a little not kind of
lucky. But it wasn't that hard. My mom kind of found out because she read my
diary, which I actually left my diary in a car. And one of her friends found it
and gave it to her. So I was a little awkward
AZ
How old were you?
Anonymous
17 when she found out but I think you know mom's always know. Yeah, you
know, so. I don't put dresses. I don't put dresses on there nothing feminine
about me. You know, I don't bring guys home. You know, I never talk about
boyfriends. So, you know, she just kind of did her own little you know, when she
when I came in the house, she kind of just not threw it at me she kind of just
�like tossed it. And and I can remember when she tossed it because she she
made this comment like she said she said cheers to your night in heaven or
something, because unfortunately it was talked about my first sexual
experience in in the, in my diary. I was just kind of like frozen when she when
she said it and that was kind of the only thing she said after that, like we never
she never you know, we didn't sit down and talk about it. You know, it was just
kind of like that was a one little comment and life just kind of went on. Which I
don't know if it was a good thing, but it seemed to work itself now. Yeah. That's
the I think I got a little scattered there, timeline.
AZ
Tell me more about what when you were talking about the balls. You
mentioned what the boys wore. The girls I mean, were the girls involved with it
Anonymous
Yes, yes, the girls were and the girls it, I think what was funny is when the kind
of femme girls would go against the femme guys for the same category, you
know, because they had a girl realness and even femmes would walk for this
category, you know, competing against, like these very feminine gay boys.
And I think the funniest thing was when the boys used to win. Right? And the
same thing with like, see the, I think the whole bunch femme thing is is an
attitude, or I think I want to say attitude, you know, or kind of I think it's attitude
because I think I kind of, you know, put out this kind of very rough attitudes
sometimes, you know, not so much frail or even then ethical being
stereotypically feminine, women are frail as well.
AZ
No but feminine does usually imply frailty culturally. So there were say butch
women walking in these balls?
Anonymous
�Yeah we would walk like I would walk for boy realness. And I would sometimes
go against like you know the kind of like butch gay boys. You know and it was
almost the same thing like you know like here is a butch woman you know
winning this category you know that was kind of like actual like you are a boy
and you can’t win it like what’s up with that. And then after that it kind of faded
like you know the the butch boys after that didn’t really walk for realness they
kind of they kind of excuse me. A new category started coming out so then
they had like b boy realness. Or and b boy realness was all about you know a
straight boy passing as a I mean a gay boy walking this category trying to act
straight. Like he would act thug. You know so he would have the baggy
clothes on and you know the Tommy Hilfiger hoody you know the hat and he
would walk and try to pass as a straight boy. And it’s funny because he’s
walking for this category that he wins and then you see the gay boy kind of
come out and they it was just fun. Like the different then it started after a while
it started getting boring because like new categories and things started
coming out and then you know there started to be a lot of animosity amongst
you know people you know and then it started becoming a thing where
people then started fighting like you know you would go to a ball and I can
remember like towards the end when I stopped going like I went half the time
to kind of watch my friend’s back. Because it, a fight always broke out
AZ
Over who won?
Anonymous
Over who won or a disagreement about who won or you know it started
coming about you know like things that kinds you know fight about. Like oh
well you aint wearing real labels like your labels aint real. You know like your
wearing bootleg clothing. Or you know, because it was such a tight
community sometimes people would sleep at somebody else’s house and so
somebody would be accused of stealing articles of clothing from each other.
�You know so after that when people starting fighting over things it just didn’t
become fun anymore. You know it was just kinda like I don’t want to go see
what fight is gonna break out I want to go to have fun
AZ
So you know how gay men, they have their own style, the pants are tight, they
wear tight little shirts, was there ever a lesbian style that you could say was
analogous?
Anonymous
I would say it was probably the b boy style. Because it was all about us like
passing. In terms of butch like I could only talk about like femme girls wore
you know femme clothing they wore you know tight jeans tight shirts you
know occasionally they wore baggy clothes but they were still they still wore it
in a feminine way. You know they would still have makeup on they would wear
even the colours the colours were you know feminine colours pink colours you
know pastel powder blues and stuff. Where the butches wore you know we
wore the big sweatshirts with baseball caps on. We wore jeans you know
sneakers then you know timberlands started becoming a new thing so we
graduated to timberlands and for us it was just all about passing
AZ
So your intention was to look like a straight male?
Anonymous
Yeah were kinda like our intention was to to pass as much as possible but
still…
AZ
Can you define pass?
�Anonymous
Like right now if I wanted to I could get up and walk to the mens room If I
wanted to
AZ
Ok so passing
Anonymous
Passing is basically going through the day or going like being able to pass as
a male. You know so we would walk into a store and they would be like excuse
me sir. So we would be able to pass or being able to you know we would go
because women’s bathrooms always got lines like we would walk into the
mens bathroom and not hear anything about it. Like that’s passing like going
through life or going through everyday with you know just being thought
people just looking at you and assuming that you’re you know that you’re a
male
AZ
Right. And is that something that you want? Have you always wanted that?
Anonymous
I, I just always wanted to always kinda be me. Like I'm a very individual sort of
self like I don’t I don’t really like labels. Like I don’t like being categorized you
know like I like wearing what I like wearing what I like to wear you know. Right
now well my clothes are male kind of orientated you know I work for a urban
clothing company so a lot of my clothes is. I wear mens clothes because
womens clothes are tighter, I don’t like em at all
Alaina
Why?
�Anonymous
I mean on me. I think I’m built too much, I’m built too much like a guy to kind of
wear feminine clothes, I think if I put on feminine clothes I kind of look like
probably a drag queen so
AZ
So you feel uncomfortable in
Anonymous
Yes, even growing up I never liked to wear dresses. Now that I think about it
my mom made me wear a dress one time to, for picture day in elementary
school, and I cried all day. Because yeah at a young age I had I started
developing body hair so I had hairy legs you know I had hair on my arms and I
cried all day because she made me go to school in this dress with these little
socks on so my legs were exposed. And I was just like, it was never because
you know kids are cruel you know kids kids say you know people would look at
me and go oh you’re ugly look at your legs like you know I’d be called a beast
you know. And it was just I hated it it was so bad like they was really, it sucked
AZ
Yeah
Anonymous
It’s and then it’s crazy now that we’re talking like all these memories start
coming out and in in the same elementary school I was actually banned from
school unless I wore a dress every day to school. Because I was so active,
which was another thing and now that I think about it my mom could have
actually sued because I went to a public school I didn’t go to a private school
AZ
Did they have uniforms?
�Anonymous
No, we wore everyday clothes you know whatever like my mom you know I
had school clothes and I had play clothes. Obviously my play clothes were
probably a little stained and had holes in them and you know my my school
clothes were nicer and newer and they forbid me to wear regular clothes I
had to wear a dress. They told me they would not allow me back in school
unless I wore a dress because I was too active
AZ
Oh so they wanted to keep you from being active…
Anonymous
They thought that if they put me in a dress that it would keep me from running
around and jumping because they they thought that you know a little girls
they were like I was too active for a little girl. You know I didn’t act like the little
girls I was I would get into fights I was climbing I was always with the little
boys and never with the little girls. And they made me wear a dress everyday
which was another thing that I hated. Like I mean I kind of didn’t have a choice
you know my mom unfortunately I guess you know she didn’t know enough to
kind of protest it. And it was towards the end of the year so for probably like
the last two weeks of school you know I had to deal with it [inaudible] I hated
it
AZ
Its a creative answer to solution
Anonymous
Yeah
AZ
�So lets fast forward to now you work in the fashion industry. How many
lesbians are there? Are there …
Anonymous
At work because I work for urban clothing company and I’m talking about
urban talking about I work for Rocawear which is right up there with
[inaudible] and you know everybody knows Jay Z which is you know CEO of
Roc-A-Fella records. And unfortunately you, being gay in an urban society
you know what I mean is, not to say that it’s unheard of but you know you
hear even the lyrics you hear about you know people being you know you
can’t be gay. Basically in in urban society and it’s crazy because when I first
started working there I remember this woman who worked in [accounts
receivable?] department. And you could clearly tell she was a woman it was
nothing you know she didn’t look like butch or androgynous like can look at
her and say is that a woman or is that a man. But she wore pantsuits, not men
pantsuits, they have pantsuits for women she wore pantsuits. And I remember
that they used to call her a shim which I thought was once again excuse me
which I thought was fucked up
AZ
That’s like she him?
Anonymous
Yes and I used to always like I would like I would say one of the biggest
advantages of being androgynous is people always think you’re male. I could
put my ID card in front of anybody and as as much as it says female you
know you know they don’t look at that people you know sex is not a thing that
people actually pay attention to on a card on an identification.They’re kind of
always looking at either your name or your your date of birth. So when I
started working at Rocawear they just automatically assumed I was a guy.
You know and I needed a job and I actually got the job through a temp
�agency. So I kind of really didn’t, because it was a temp agency I didn’t think I
was actually gonna be there long. So I kind of didn’t correct anybody or make
a big thing about it and then even more after they I used to hear them say
this. And I asked I used to ask I said why do you call her a shim like why do you
call her that? And they used to be like look at her, look at the way she dresses
and I would be like what’s wrong with the way she dresses? Like she has a
pantsuit on it’s not a mens suit its a womans suit. And they used to be like you
know but just look at her shes you know shes shes she looks like a man. She
doesn’t look like a man, she’s a woman she’s wearing a pantsuit like what’s
the problem. And I would start getting into arguments but and then kind of
backed off to kind of not draw and I think the woman was was oblivious to it
because they would call her a shim to her face and should laugh and go
yeah I’m a shim. And I don’t think she kind of knew what they were saying
about her and then she would she would talk about that she had a boyfriend.
And of course they would all make fun of her and be like oh your full of shit
you know you got a boyfriend, which was like still once again messed up. And
so fortunately I didn’t realize it but I I then became full time.
At the time I worked when I first started at at Rocawear I worked in the internet
department. So I used to basically coordinate what you see on the website.
You know getting images together, coordinating photo shoots with the
clothes, customer service, basically everything. And they had another des
they brought in this new designer and I remember his name was David Ayala
he was a gay man and clearly gay flaming as hell. You know cool, you know
cool guy and people used to make fun of him. Like like you know they would
joke with him but of course always joke with him in like a homophobic way.
You know like they would say they would say stupid stuff like you know like
how was that dick last night or something like that. Like this is a urban like
thing so they didn’t give a shit like there was no biting their tongues there was
nothing you know like the office is clearly homophobic. Like people say they
don’t have a problem with it you know but you hear like the responses and the
�things that they say the snickering like underneath their breath. And he used
to get a lot of crap but I think he just used to joke it off he was probably
making a crapload of money for being for being a head designer
AZ
Right, yeah, sure
Anonymous
And then once again the company just grew you know and now I work I I
started about three years ago working for the internet department I was
working for the IT department. Because the internet they actually started
outsourcing to a company called E fashions, which also runs JLo site baby fat.
So I was actually going to be let go. And by the grace of God, I was saved by
my boss to come and work in the IT department because Rocawear then
started getting big started blowing up started becoming more popular. So
they needed more people. And from there we move to 1411 Broadway, which is
the fashion district that's the big building that got the if you’ve seen it’s got the
giant button.
AZ
Oh!
Anonymous
That's the building I work in. And so we expanded we actually used to be 463 7
Avenue, and it became bigger and then they moved to to 1411 Broadway and
staff started you know, more people production started getting bigger
designs got a bit bigger. And there are people that you could kind of I want to
say, you know, when you’re gay, you have gaydar, you kind of know, you know
who's or you suspect. And people just ridicule them like you could. I mean, I
always thought I always kept it to myself. And like you know I would say in my
head oh, she looks like shes gay and then they started this in so funny. I think
�nobody messed with him because he was he was a big guy, there was a
woven designer [move insurance?] or like these button up shirts. Yeah. And
his name was Lesley. And he was he was out. He was clearly out. He's gay.
Everything about him. Right. He talked, you could clearly tell as soon as he
talked to you, he was gay. And I think nobody said anything to him because I
think they were scared of him. You know.
AZ
Because he was physically.
Anonymous
He was physically big. You know, like, he was very muscular. He was a big,
muscular black guy. And he was Canadian. I didn't know that. But it kind of
quieted down a little bit, because I think people kind of curbed their tone
around him because he would look like he didn't. He was a person that you
would say something that he would just sit there and just, you know, what we
call read. Like, he would just read you. You know.
AZ
What does that mean?
Anonymous
Read is like a gay term in terms of is a gay word for like, telling you off.
AZ
Okay.
Anonymous
Like he would simply put his hand on his head. He would do the whole finger
gesture. And it's even funnier when you got this kind of big muscular guy.
�AZ
Yeah.
Anonymous
Like you know, like, scolding you, like, how you probably would see a younger,
you know, petite woman like scolding.
AZ
Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous
You know, somebody and I think he just scared the shit out of people. Yeah, I
was like, in the corner. But yes. You know, but, you know, it makes me sad
sometime that I can't be like, who I am there. You know, like, my biggest fear, I
think at work is people finding out. You know, and it's come like real close at
times. When people find it out.
AZ
Yeah
Anonymous
Because we have sample sales. Rokawear has these awesome sample sales.
I got your number I'll let you know. And I, they open it to the public from like,
the first hour. It's it's just employees, and then they open it to the public. And
there was this guy who I actually used to go out with his friend when I was
younger, when I was kind of going through my you know what am I phase
straight or or gay? And he comes to every sample sale.
AZ
Does he recognise you?
�Anonymous
I don't let him like I've came real close where I've I've gone in. And I've saw him
and I kind of timed real quick, before he didn't even see me. And it was funny
one time I went in to talk to Michelle, which is actually J sister, when she works
there, she's real cool. And I went in, I was like Michelle, and I said, Michelle, he
kind of like I, I saw him like a profile, like view of him and he went to turn. And
when I saw him, I did kind of like ran out of room. So Michelle was like
[redacted] what. And I'm like, nothing, I'll talk to you later.
AZ
That's amazing that you have to do that.
Anonymous
Like every sample, like one every time we have a sample sale I avoid, like
passing like the office is huge so I could kind of get to where I need to go
through any kind of like, I could just. Sometimes I have to literally walk around
the whole entire office to get to the stairs [inaudible]. Or I’ll leave and just take
the elevator up one floor, because we have two floors. So I'll take the elevator
to the next floor with my office is or cubicle. And just to avoid, just to avoid. It's,
it's really crazy.
AZ
That is something else, yeah. To me, it's like New York City this day.
Anonymous
But I mean, once again, I work in, I work in a urban culture where, you know, it's
really not acceptable to be to be gay or lesbian. And then all the women in
my office are kind of like, you know, there are some attractive women. So of
course, if you're don't look like the typical woman, you know, you're that oddity,
you know, so it just, you know, sometimes I think, you know, I shouldn't be here,
�and all like that that's not fair. To myself. Like, I feel like sometimes I'm not
being true to myself, because I kind of lead this double life. You know, but
unfortunately, I found a career that I really liked. And I made a lot of contacts, I
kind of put it to the side, you know, so I could make more women get that 30%
off for wholesalers.
AZ
So how are you doing? Are you getting tired?
Anonymous
No, I am good. You tired? Break or Anything?
AZ
No, I have so many questions. I don't know how much contact you had with
the rest of the fashion industry. But do you think that other places in fashion
would be as bad?
Anonymous
As long as they're not urban, I don't think they are. I think it's only the urban,
like, clothing companies that we you you kind of fall into that. You know, that
where its just not acceptable. Like, you could probably like I'm pretty sure in
every in I'm pretty sure there are gay people in Rockafella records that are
putting their gay people in Sean John, you know, even even in the in the other
clothing companies like Echo. Probably [Nietzsche?], you know, there are there
people everywhere, but I just think that it's just, I feel bad. I feel like if they could
be who they are, and be openly gay at the job like I commend them. Like and,
you know, I think it's, I think it's different for men than it is for women. I think the
men because you think about fashion, sometimes you think, you know, if a
guy's a designer, he's gay. They used to, you know, like, he's a designer, he's
gay. So it's kinda like, you know, they already fall in that category. And, you
�know, their stereotypes, I say, into that category. So, but I think when it's a
woman, it's still like, I think if it's, if she's femme, you know, she kind of just
passes, you know, but if you're Butch, then you're hit with that whole oh you
want to be a man or you haven't had a guy to give it to correct or, or
something like you’re just considered like, odder than odd. You know, I mean,
like, you're just worse than that gay designer. But we could deal with him. He's
gay. We know. He's a designer, you know, but you're there's something wrong
with you.
AZ
Yeah.
Anonymous
So but I think they're I think, you know, I think there are gay and lesbian in
every single aspect of you know, in fashion. I mean regardless in urban, I think
they’re everywhere.
AZ
You just don’t know who they are.
Anonymous
No, I wish they did. I wish I did. You know, like, if I could go to a company where
I know that there were probably other gay and lesbian people that were out
like I would in a heartbeat.
AZ
My boss is Lesbian actually. And her partner was the also the business
partner. But that's besides the point. And actually, I think you've hit everything.
Is there anything else you want to talk about?
Anonymous
�Is there anything else you wanna know?
AZ
Let me see. Not really, let’s end there. Okay. Thank you very much. This has
been an excellent interview.
�
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/09eb364f891e947eb646ed85077af3be.mp3
bdf9c741c88259419e5bd84ba2e1816a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of New York Lesbian Style Oral History Project, 2007
Description
An account of the resource
The History of New York Lesbian Style oral history collection is an oral history project created by Alaina Zulli in 2007. Zulli was in graduate school for fashion history at NYU at the time and was working with the oral history collection as a student employee at Tamiment Library, which motivated her to document the changes in the lesbian experience in New York as expressed in fashion through the personal accounts of women who identify as a lesbian and who live in New York City.
This collection includes four audio recordings of interviews conducted by Alaina Zulli in 2007, which have been digitized from CD-R by students at Pratt Institute’s Library and Information Science Program. The original materials are held in off-site storage by the Lesbian Herstory Archives.
Transcriptions of the interviews are available, thanks to Amelia Leventhal, Marissa Moxley, and Sophia Santaniello .
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The information available on this site, including any text, data, artwork, video, audio, images or graphics may be protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws. Entities other than the Lesbian Herstory Archive may own copyright of the material. Material from the website may be used for non-profit or educational purposes. However, if copies are printed or displayed, copyright notice must be included. Except as provided above, you may not reproduce, republish, post, transmit or distribute any material from this website in any physical or digital form without the permission of the copyright owner.
For information regarding any further use of the materials contained on this site, please contact the Lesbian Herstory Archives:
LHEF, Inc. 484 14th Street Brooklyn, New York 11215
Telephone: 718-768-DYKE
Email: lesbianherstoryarchives@gmail.com
Sound
A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Alternative Title
An alternative name for the resource. The distinction between titles and alternative titles is application-specific.
HNYLS_Anonymous_Censored_1.wav
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
History of New York Lesbian Style
Title
A name given to the resource
Lesbian Style Project: Anonymous Interviewee
Description
An account of the resource
The interviewee recounts her experiences growing up lesbian and intersex in Brooklyn and Manhattan. She discusses the lesbian community, the ballroom scene, workplace and school bullying, and her experiences working at an urban clothing company.
The interviewee's name has been withheld at her request.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/rights-statement" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Please see the Lesbian Herstory Archive's Rights Statement and the donor agreement form.</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
5/31/07
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
PT54M53S
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mpeg
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
CD-R
PBCore
PBCore is a metadata standard for audiovisual media developed by the public broadcasting community. See http://www.pbcore.org/documentation/
Interviewer
The person(s) conducting the interview. (For personal names use "LastName, FirstName MiddleName, Suffix").
Alaina Zulli
Autobiography
Coming Out
Discrimination
Fashion
Femininity & Masculinity
Intersex
Interviews
Lesbian Community
Support Groups
Voguing
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/d2637f581d72694491f7530b09b062aa.pdf
c8ce168357679639250e6cd62fb5cf8b
PDF Text
Text
Alaina Zulli
Okay, this is Alaina Zulli, it's June 5, and I'm interviewing–
Thomas Vance
Courtney Vance.
AZ
Who likes to go by Thomas.
TV
Yes.
AZ
We are in the Barney Building of NYU. Thomas, let's start with your background.
Tell me where you were born, about your parents.
TV
Okay. I was born in Southern California, Long Beach.
AZ
I'm sorry.
[End of CD 1, start of CD 2]
AZ
Okay, let's resume.
TV
Okay. Let's see. But we quickly moved from there when I was 1 years old. My
mom wanted to be closer to family so we moved to Indiana. And then after
that my parents separated. They were never married, but they were together
for several years. My dad moved to Cleveland and I grew up in Indiana for the
next eight or so years, which I liked because I was close to my family. You
know, I basically my cousins were like my brothers and my sisters. I was really
close to my grandmother. I stayed at our house all the time. Then we moved
�to Texas because my mom changed her job or something. Her job required
her to move. And I lived in Texas from 9 to 14. I wouldn't say that I hated it
there. But at least in Indiana, which is a pretty backward state, I had my family
and stuff but in Texas there wasn't even that. I mean, it was just, we lived in the
suburbs. It was everyone was the same, all the houses look the same,
everybody dressed the same. People were very small minded, you know. I
remember the first time I ever got political was like, in the 2000 election or
whatever. I didn't have really any idea of, you know, I didn't have any
particular political beliefs at that time. But I knew enough to know that I was
like, I wouldn't have been a person that voted for George Bush. I was like,
"Wow, that's crazy." Oh, and I went to a Baptist School there. That was weird.
Like, have you ever seen "Saved"?
AZ
Yeah.
TV
It was–that movie is not even a satire. My school is exactly like that. There was
no difference. My school is like "Saved." It was, you know, I mean, I mean, very,
like hypercritical people will you know, like, oh, Jesus will save you blabbity
blah from your sins and you know, trying to be really like peppy and happy,
but really sort of with this very mean spirit. But yeah.
AZ
So were you really religious?
TV
I went to church every Sunday.
AZ
Baptist?
TV
Baptist. But that was about it. I celebrated Easter and Christmas, but nothing
beyond that. I think my mom had a religious phase when I was probably like,
eight or nine. And you know, started like going to like these like, mother and
�daughter Bible camp getaway things, which are really weird. And she made
me go like Bible School in that Baptist School. And then after that, I guess we
kind of faded, we stopped going to church. And now I'm very vocal, like, I don't
like going to church at all. Whenever we go back to Indiana, she's like, it's
Sunday, we should go to church. I'm like, I'm not going. And then I end up
going anyway. She's like, it's for grandmother. I go. And anyway, my mom was
like, I want to be a lawyer. I'm gonna go to school in New York. I've always
wanted to live there. So when I was 14, we moved here. And so far, so good. I
like it a lot. So that's my background for the most part.
AZ
Okay, good. I don't know if you mentioned it, but when, what year were you
born?
TV
1988. November 17, 1988.
AZ
Okay. Move on to your sexuality.
TV
Okay.
AZ
Tell me when you knew, when you came out. Your whole story.
TV
I've been told that I like realized a lot later than most other people because I
was like, now looking back and like, oh, yeah, I was totally, like 5 years old. But
it didn't. I didn't realize until I was probably 15 or 16. I don't know. I had this
crush on this girl at my school. And I was like, oh, no, she's just someone I'd like
to be a friend or something. And then I was like, no, I totally want to have sex
with her. And I don't know, I don't think I had any problem with it. Like, I wasn't
like, there wasn't any conflict or anything. Actually, I was kind of happy. I was
like, okay. My best friend was gay. And he was the first person that I told I was
like, I think I like girls. I'm just like, yeah, I know.
�AZ
So he knew already?
TV
Yeah. That's basically, I came out to my mom when I was 17. I told her I was bi
and she was really upset. She was more upset than I thought she'd be. You
know, she's liberal person. And so I wasn't expecting that at all. Is like what? No,
I think she was more shocked than anything. And I cried, whatever, because
she was not very sensitive at all and then like, like random–we didn't talk
about–and then like randomly like two months later she was like, what did she
say? She said something like all that matters is that you have healthy
relationships and that was like the end and it was really weird and random.
I'm out to pretty much everybody at my school, like all my friends and stuff.
Let's see, more about my gay-acity. I don't know, even looking back like like
even in middle school. Like now what I realized were like crushes and stuff on
different girls I just completely misunderstood as something else.
AZ
Tell me about your name.
TV
Oh, Thomas? I think I started, I started going by that like maybe a year ago. It's
not, I know, it's like a boy name. But I didn't choose it because I want to be a
boy or anything. But there are a lot of reasons. I had this one teacher. Her
name is, her name is, George that's like actually her birth name. And I was like,
wow, that's kind of cool. And then I was, I was, looking at the word Thomas and
Tom and stuff and like the history of the word and what it meant and how it
was like used to describe like, wayward women and stuff like that. And then
how it sort of morphed into Tom as being like lesbian and then also like,
tomboy and stuff. And my great grandmother's named Thomas which is
weird.
AZ
The first name was Thomas?
�TV
Mhm. And so I was like maybe Thomas for mine. I like it.
AZ
That is interesting.
TV
Yeah.
AZ
Okay. Okay, since the topic that I brought you here to discuss is lesbian style.
First, describe your style for me. Tell me about your style.
TV
My style it, it changes. I think it would be hard to like, I think it's pretty laid back.
I kind of have like, I guess what you'd call like a punkish face. And I still try to
sometimes implement that into what I wear. I wear ties a lot. I like to wear
jeans. I don't wear shorts at all. Never. I like to wear polo shirts. I like to wear
black a lot. I used to wear a lot of graphic tees but I kind of got away from that
because I thought it looked immature or something like that. I'm trying to sort
of make my style a little bit more mature. Now I'd say I like to experiment a lot.
Like yesterday, I had like this mohawk thing going on that I tried to fashion
worked pretty well until it rained and my hair kind of shrunk. And it was ugly.
And then and I was like these crazy like psycho boots with this really short
skirt. It was cool. I liked it a lot. Sometimes I like to be really wild. Other times I
like to be laid back. I think the one unifying theme in my style is that it's, it
reflects my mood at the time. Like yesterday was kind of like a pissed off day.
So I wanted to be like, you know, that was like those are like my fuck society
boots. Today, actually, today is like, I need to do laundry day, more than
anything. But it changes. I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's like whether it's like, girly
or more boyish. I like to wear skirts a lot. I like to I like to wear skirts a lot
actually. And dresses. And but for the most part I like to like every day you
could probably find me with jeans and a polo shirt and like brown boots or
something or Converses.
AZ
�Converse?
TV
Yeah.
AZ
Yeah. Does, do you think that your sexuality has any effects on what you wear
at all?
TV
Yeah. I I don't know. Not even what I wear but just everything like about, like
how I hold myself and stuff and like I don't know. Whenever I dress like even
when I wear a skirt, I tried to make it more lesbian or something. I don't know
exactly what that means.
AZ
Can you try?
TV
Okay. I don't know. Like, if I wear a skirt I'll try to have like maybe a more boyish
hairstyle or something. I'll never wear like I guess like a frilly t-shirt or
something with a skirt. I'll wear like a blue jeans skirt or something and like a
shirt like this. And boots, or I guess I try to sometimes make it a little edgy or
boyish. And for me, I guess that equates to lesbianism. I don't know how I
guess.
AZ
Don't be embarrassed. That's a very, I mean, yeah.
TV
Like the other day or whatever I saw this girl on the train. I had a crush on her.
I'm pretty sure she was a lesbian and I think so cause she was with a girl and
they were like all being girlfriend-y and I don't know, she wore this she was
wearing like baggy capris or something and this brown shirt and shoes. And
now that I'm thinking about it's very not interesting outfit, but it looked really
like I don't care what I wear. But actually I do look so I can I think that kind of–it
�definitely doesn't influence what I wear. I always–when I was a kid I was a big
tomboy I never like, I never wore dresses and stuff but that was more because
I didn't want to be perceived as being girly. Not that I had actually any
problem with wearing them. I find them comfy and cute. In middle school I
had like this like I said that like punk phase and you know. Now, now I've just
kind of developed, it kind of encompasses all of those my like childhood
phases like so I tried to incorporate it. Punk boy, androgynous style, if that
makes sense.
AZ
Sure.
TV
When I see some pictures of myself. I wore some really ugly things.
AZ
Wore or wear?
TV
Wore. Now I like to think that I don't dress quite as badly. And even when I see
pictures of myself last year, like I had on this like, blouse or whatever like
button up shirt and like a brown like vest sweater sweater vest over it. And a
tie. I really liked it. I was like, oh I look cute in that picture. But I don't think I'd
wear anything like that today.
AZ
Why?
TV
I don't know. It's, I liked it. I think I wrote then because I was like trying to be
more boyish, but now it's a little too preppy for me. I like to have like fun like
radical political beliefs. So I'm gonna like look like a person has a lot of
[inaudible]. That's pretty much yeah.
AZ
�Yeah. You've kind of touched on this, but maybe you can just go into more
detail. What, if you see someone on the street or when you dress, what makes
you think somebody's lesbian?
TV
I don't know. Like it's hard because you could see like, two women wearing like
similar things. I'm like, oh, she's a lesbian. She's not. I don't know. Like when I
think, I guess it's like the way you style your hair and I don't know I'm trying to
think of like things that I look for when I see. Like that's something I look for like,
you know on the subway train I'm like, like who's gay?
AZ
Oh, yeah.
TV
And I guess kind of look for whatever is a little bit different than the rest of
what people are wearing like stuff like all the other one then. Usually like the
person who I'm assuming is a lesbian will like, the clothes will just be like a little
bit different than the rest of the woman on the train. I'm not even sure how it's
different. It's just different. Like just like how I could say like, think of like urban
or Black style or something like so you can have like two guys wearing a polo
shirt and jeans or something. And like one you would think is being more
urban style and the other like preppy and I don't even know what it is. It's just
how it's worn in a way like the size is it loose or tight? So I guess I think of
maybe being a little bit baggier, but not always. Definitely not always. Maybe
a little edgier. I think those are the things I look for: edgier and baggier. Those
are the two words I guess I would use to describe it, you know. I don't know, I
guess there's a lot of girls I would imagine that would don't dress in that way
that are still lesbians. I guess I just missed them on when I'm playing who's
gay?
AZ
Sure. I'm always really surprised when they go to a gay bar. Let's see who's
really out there.
TV
�Yeah, for sure.
AZ
So I've been out of high school for a long time now. So I'm curious. In lesbian
community, there are lesbians that seem to be very anti fashion for various
reasons, often because it's seen as being, dressing for the male gaze,
dressing for, you know, just for men. What is it like for you? I mean, what are
your peers like in high school?
TV
Well, I don't know any other gay person at my school. I know a lot of gay guys.
I don't know any other girls that are gay. There's just one girl now. She's bi. I
don't know, like, I the way they dress is very different than the way that I dress.
I don't think that I have any judgment or anything. I mean, because I don't
really think that clothing is that big of a deal. I mean, it does I think it does
often reflect a lot about your personality and that kind of thing. But even like,
when I look at my own, how my fashion has changed. Yeah, when I look at
how my fashion is changed, it almost often reflects how I view myself as a
person. So I do think it's important, but in school I've never, like gotten made
fun of or anything like that, or for the way that I dress or for being gay. I mean
I'm sure the larger community doesn't know that I'm gay. I mean, it's really
annoying when people ask you questions, like, what kind of guy you like? I
mean, it's like, every time it's like, you have to come out every 10 seconds like,
actually.
AZ
Yeah, right.
TV
So I don't know if maybe even people ask that, to find out if I'm gay or not,
because I had like roundabout questions like, what kind of person are you
into? Or something like that. So maybe people do think that I'm gay. I know
that total a lot of people and they weren't surprised at all. And I remember I
told my one of my best friends Justine and she's like, oh, my God, my sister
told me but I didn't believe her. And I don't know if that if that meant even
before I realized that I was came off a certain way. I don't think that I was like,
�like going at girls on the street or anything like that. So I don't know what it was
that would have tipped people off to it. So I'm sure a lot of people think it or
suspect it. And I haven't noticed any change in how they view me or yeah.
AZ
Yeah.
TV
Did I answer your question? I don't think I was even sure exactly what you're
asking.
AZ
Oh, I don't think I made it clear. I don't know.
TV
Okay.
AZ
Question. Oh, well, there are a lot of gay men in fashion. They're, they're just
really interested in fashion. They work in fashion. Very few lesbians. Do you
have any theories?
TV
Any theories?
AZ
Well, I have personal experience.
TV
When I say it, it sounds pretty, like I guess old fashioned. But I think gay men in
general or a lot of gay men gravitating more towards the arts in general. And I
guess you could, in a way consider fashion to be part of the arts, its creative.
While lesbians don't–I can't even I mean, there are some pretty cool like what I
would deem like lesbian styles, but I don't know if that would appeal to the
larger population.
�AZ
Like what?
TV
Like, lesbian styles you mean? Yeah, like I don't know, like I couldn't really see
like, what I'm wearing right now like going down the runway or something like
that. And when I think of like, even gay fashion, it's a little bit like, it's very, like
together and tight and like, I feel like I should snap when I think of gay fashion
like, like when when I think of like, yeah, like male gay style. And I'm trying to
theorize, I think it has to do with the fact that fashion is more girly, or
something like that. It's girlier. I don't know. I don't know. And also, like, I think
that America thinks like, gay guys are cute or something like when you think of
like, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy like, oh, those gay people. They're so cute in
their gay ways. Look at his gay outfit, his gay twang, and all this stuff. So that's
how I think that they're sort of receptive to, like gay men in that way. And I
think maybe they might feel a little bit more threatened by women in fashion
just like they might be threatened by women in any kind of power control in
general could be part of it. I just want to put this out there. This about my my
friend Josh, and he visited me over the summer. Obviously, he's not a lesbian,
but he's gay. And we were hanging out just day-to-day he wears, I don't want
to say he's a bad dresser, but very plain, you know, nondescript average
American kind of dress. And so when I was like, oh, let's go hang out at the
East Village it was like 11pm, he's like, oh, no, we have to go home. I have to
dress gay or something. Okay, okay. And I don't know, the thing is I knew
exactly what he meant. I was like, yeah, you should probably change. And we
went home and I don't know, like, I think a lot of time, the way you dress has to
do with like, recognition or something like in a way like you want to be
recognized for being who you are or something, especially by your own
community, like, like, hey, I'm gay, you're gay, too. We're sisters. And I think I
think that definitely affects how I dress.
AZ
It does. Okay, it's the end of my list here. All I can remember. Is there anything
else you want to add?
TV
�Is there anything else you want to add? Not that I can think of. It's hard to just
think of something.
AZ
Okay, thank you very much.
�
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/7acbc2357414f095ee5c77600a25fe7e.mp3
a2e72928ec4d1417eeea8b97b0ba190b
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/9902498b46c4d23df0d3b073463396c8.mp3
6d3631200725e457ceb83c1a675d5453
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of New York Lesbian Style Oral History Project, 2007
Description
An account of the resource
The History of New York Lesbian Style oral history collection is an oral history project created by Alaina Zulli in 2007. Zulli was in graduate school for fashion history at NYU at the time and was working with the oral history collection as a student employee at Tamiment Library, which motivated her to document the changes in the lesbian experience in New York as expressed in fashion through the personal accounts of women who identify as a lesbian and who live in New York City.
This collection includes four audio recordings of interviews conducted by Alaina Zulli in 2007, which have been digitized from CD-R by students at Pratt Institute’s Library and Information Science Program. The original materials are held in off-site storage by the Lesbian Herstory Archives.
Transcriptions of the interviews are available, thanks to Amelia Leventhal, Marissa Moxley, and Sophia Santaniello .
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The information available on this site, including any text, data, artwork, video, audio, images or graphics may be protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws. Entities other than the Lesbian Herstory Archive may own copyright of the material. Material from the website may be used for non-profit or educational purposes. However, if copies are printed or displayed, copyright notice must be included. Except as provided above, you may not reproduce, republish, post, transmit or distribute any material from this website in any physical or digital form without the permission of the copyright owner.
For information regarding any further use of the materials contained on this site, please contact the Lesbian Herstory Archives:
LHEF, Inc. 484 14th Street Brooklyn, New York 11215
Telephone: 718-768-DYKE
Email: lesbianherstoryarchives@gmail.com
Sound
A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
History of New York Lesbian Style
Title
A name given to the resource
Lesbian Style Project: Courtney Vance
Description
An account of the resource
Alaina Zulli interviews Courtney Vance, who now goes by Thomas. Vance discusses growing up, coming out, and current stylistic choices and experiences.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/rights-statement" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See the LHA Copyright Statement</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/5/07
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
PT24M20S
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mpeg
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
CD-R
Alternative Title
An alternative name for the resource. The distinction between titles and alternative titles is application-specific.
HNYLS_Vance_1.wav, HNYLS_Vance_2.wav
PBCore
PBCore is a metadata standard for audiovisual media developed by the public broadcasting community. See http://www.pbcore.org/documentation/
Interviewer
The person(s) conducting the interview. (For personal names use "LastName, FirstName MiddleName, Suffix").
Alaina Zulli
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed. (For personal names use "LastName, FirstName MiddleName, Suffix").
Courtney Vance
Coming Out
Fashion
Lesbian Community
-
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/246b3841ada65edfd64515d21d25440e.pdf
c9440db6a16c50d540e6277980c28eff
PDF Text
Text
Alaina Zulli
Okay, this is an interview with Maria Maria Gorkhover. On May 30 2007,
interviewed by Alaina Zulli, we are in Bobst Library at NYU, in New York City.
Okay, Maria, let's start with your background where you grew up your age and
a little bit about your family.
Maria Gorkhover
So I grew up in Uzbekistan, which is one of the former Soviet republics. Now it's
an independent country. And I lived there until I was 10 years old. My family,
standard Jewish family, meaning, you know, everybody's Jewish into the nth
generation, like pure read. I have one brother, who is 17. And I have another
brother, who is for my, when my parents came here, like in about three years
after they got here, they divorced. I was like, 13 at the time. And then my mom
was married to a guy who was not Jewish, and they had a baby. And that
baby is my, is my second brother, who is right now four. My dad, he also
remarried, but there's no kids from that marriage. And then they got divorced.
And right now he's not married, but you know, he is in a relationship. And I,
when we came, I lived with both parents, obviously. Then, after my parents
were divorced, I lived with my mom for many, many years. And then about, I
think two years ago, something like that. I moved with my dad because he
lives in Brooklyn, and it's closer for me to commute to school much closer. And
I also like living with him better. So let's see. Anything else?
AZ
What did your parents do?
MG
My parents are both computer programmers. My dad, well, my dad used to
be a computer programmer, but in America, he had a bit of difficulty in that
department. And right now he's trying to be a teacher, like a teacher of high
school mathematics. He's finishing his master's program, so you can be
�certified. My mom continued to be a computer programmer. And she works
right now at Duane Reade. Like, you know, in the corporate office and stuff.
AZ
Okay. So, let's jump ahead to your sexuality. Tell me about how you knew you
were lesbian, when you came out, the whole story?
MG
Okay, the question presents itself, how graphic do we need to get? So I always
knew that I liked girls. And I never, so how did I know that I liked them?
Because I had really graphic fantasies about them. And that is before I you
know, I saw any kind of pornography or anything of the sort before we had
internet and before I you know, had Cinemax or anything of the sort, like I had
really kind of graphic fantasies. Nothing like that towards guys. Like, really
nothing. So from, I'd say, well, I'd say age eleven. I started having these
fantasies, and then like, then I didn't know what the hell what that meant,
actually. And by somehow around age fifteen. And I was like, well, let's see, it's
pretty clear that I like girls like a lot. But I actually don't mind guys, because I
didn't find them distasteful or anything like that. So I was like, You know what, I
am bi, because I didn't want to say that I'm lesbian and, you know, cut out the
potential of marriage and men and pleasing my parents and as important
out of my life altogether. So I thought that, well, I thought in my mind that I
was bi until actually recently, it's about a year – no, a year ago, about six
months ago, a little bit more, when I figured out through, like, I guess, recent,
through sexual experiences that I had at that time that No, I was not, in fact, bi
I mean, not minding guys actually doesn't mean that you are attracted to
them. So I mean, I mean, if that's your definition of bi, it's not mine. Right, so. So
then I like identified myself as basically gay as such, although between that
time when I was 23, and the time when I was 15. I always knew that I like girls
like far, far more than guys. So I thought that I was bi, just really more much
more towards girls. But now it's like it's, you know, like, there's no point of me
�being with guys because if, I am just like not attracted to them. I can take it,
but why bother? Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Anything else?
AZ
Well, um coming out how was it for you with your family?
MG
Oh, that's that's a drama story and of itself rather. So the first time that I came
out was to my mom when I was 15 years old. And it was this big. Like hysteric
scene, like I was crying and I had like, hysterics and such and hyperventilating
and stuff. Uh. Why I was coming out at that specific time? Because there was
this girl that I loved or I thought I loved and I wanted to be in a relationship
with her.
And even though the smart thing to do would have been to, you know, keep
hush hush about it, and save everybody the trouble, being the excruciatingly
honest person that I am meaning I can't keep any secrets from my parents,
right? I- You know, I, I went to confessional with my mom and the priest. And
she was like, Oh, it's a phase, you know, you shouldn't do this. And basically,
she told me that, if I do start a relationship with a girl, she'll be very
disappointed with me. She will withdraw from me, and she doesn't know what
kind of parent- daughter relationship we'll be able to have. Which was kind of
like a death sentence. So, I mean, because my mom was basically like, my
God at that time, like her approval was my main goal in life and my main
cause of happiness in life, and lack thereof, my main cause of misery in life.
So, I was like, That's it. Like, I like, I, even though I - No, I did love this girl, I didn't
want to be with her. I simply could not do it, even behind my mom's back.
Because I would be, let's say, like, you know, making out with her. And then
with that going on, you'd be like, What would my mom think of me? If she
knew I was doing this? Right. So at that time, I was like, I really, really wanted to
�make myself straight. How did I do that? I kind of I started going out with guys
basically. Right. Any, like random guys. Like, you know what, I don't mind them,
so let's stick to that. Right. And I tried to like force myself to not look at girls –
tried being the operative word, obviously.
So and, like, a few days later. Like, I just could not stand the thought of my
mom being disappointed in me and ashamed of me, basically. And
withdrawing from me. I told her mom, you are right, this is a phase and I am in
fact straight and so on and so on. Okay, so I thought, you know, the situation
was taken care of, so I will make myself straight. Or rather, I will just ignore girls
altogether, you know. Cause seeing as I was like well I can just go with guys
for the rest of my life, why should that be a problem? You know.
So fast forward to let's see, I think it was about 19 years old? Right. Then, was it
19 years old? No, it was not 19 years old. It was well, 20, it was actually 21 years
old. Right. I actually, like began a relationship with this girl, like in secrecy at
age eighteen, because I don't know I've calmed down or something. And I was
like, You know what? I mean, like, I'm not going to kill myself over it. But like, I'm
not going to tell my mom because I just could not live with her
disappointmented, like, presence, right?
But at like by age 21, it really begin to kind of weigh down upon me that I could
not really, you know, be with girls and have her know about it. And, like,
basically, there was this conflict with this girl. Okay, you know, we actually, we
had a very strange on again, off again, open relationship where we're
basically best friends and occasionally had sex. So it was not a relationship
like as such, like not in the sense that most people understand that. Right. And
I always knew that I would have like other relationships, other romantic
relationships besides her. And she also knew that that she was like, cool with
it. Right? We were just kind of each other's support system. Up until the time
when we were both I don't know, ready to go find somebody else or
�something like that. Basically, best friends who just turned out to be gay both
so you know, why not have sex?
So by age 21, there was this conflict in me. On the one hand, I couldn't I was
like, okay, um, well, I'm bi, so I can be with guys all the time, but that would
mean that I'm gonna be continuously suppressing my urge towards girls,
which was very strong, and it was growing stronger, like every day. On the
other hand, I could not tell my mom any of this because either she'll be
disappointed in me. She'll be like, okay, Maria continue to suppress it or
something like that. Or she'll be like, "No, Maria, you're already 21 years old.
You're an adult. You can go do whatever you want. You can go sleep with
girls," but inside she'll be very, very disappointed and ashamed. She'll just not
say it, but she'll think that and she'll feel it. And I didn't want that.
So the question was, like, suppress myself, for the sake of my mom's approval,
not suppress myself, face her disappointment. Either way, not a pleasant
solution. So, after a lot of, you know, mental anguish that we Jews are known
for. True, right? So, I, I took my mom, I made an appointment with a shrink in
the city, an American shrink, right? And I went to the shrink with my mom, like, I
dragged her to it, because I was like, "Mom I need to tell you something." And
after, and, it was like this big, big dramatic thing once again, in that shrinks
office, right? Because, like, I started crying again, and hyperventilating and
stuff like that. And I even had to go outside to like, calm myself down and
whatever. And then I came back, and I was like, Mama, I love you. And I don't
want to disappoint you, like your approval means everything to me. But I like
girls, and I can't fight it anymore. You know, add all the tears and all that and
all that stuff.
And I wanted to do it in front of a shrink, who has a PHD. So the shrink can
immediately tell my mom, no, it's not a phase. And no, you know, it's not like an
abnormal thing, or whatever it is. So we can have the professional opinion in
�the consultation, like right there. Right? So if I tell my mom, it's not a phase, it's
like who the hell am I? I'm no doctor? But if this PhD of psychology tells her? It's
an entirely different thing. She took it like much calmer, actually. Right? And so
you know, and I asked the shrink, like, is this a phase? Like, can you tell my
mom, is it a phase or not? She's like, "No, it's not a phase." And I'm like, "Mom,
I'm 21 years old. It's like, how can it be a phase by now if I've been experiencing
this since 11, 12, something like that." Right?
She took it. And she, at that time, she kind of, she calmed down about it. And
she believed me fully. Like she believed that, you know, that is indeed the
situation. There's nothing you can do about it really, and right and stuff. And I
guess, it also helps the fact that I told her I was bi, because I thought I was bi
at the time. So she's like, well, she likes girls. Let her experiment with girls, sleep
around, but you know, she's still gonna get married to a guy. And actually I
told her as much I'm like, "Yeah, I'm gonna sleep around with girls, party. And
then I'm gonna get married to a guy because I want to have a family," and so
on and so on. She's like, okay, you know, that's, that's not a problem. I mean, it's
unfortunate. That's not the best situation, but you know, we can deal with it.
She's still gonna give me grandkids. Yeah.
So then, it was like, Okay, this you know, this is a much better situation for me
nice and calm. But then it was pressing upon me to confess to my dad, which
I did. After you know, a little bit of Dutch courage.
AZ
Some drinking?
MG
Yes. So, because I was like, You know what, I'm not gonna hyperventilate, I'm
not gonna cry. And I'm not gonna go into hysterics again. I'll be calm, even if
it's chemically induced. So, like, yeah, that was, that was really interesting. Like,
�he's sitting on the couch. Right. Watching soccer. I'm like, Papa, I want to talk
to you. Like, okay, talk to me. I'm like, Papa turn off the tv. I'm gonna talk to you.
He muted the soccer. Papa, look at me, I want to talk to you. It's important. He's
like, I'm listening. I'm listening. Like, okay. So I'm like, Papa, like girls. He's like, I
know. Like, what? How do you know this? Like, your mom told me when you
were 15? Yeah, my mom actually, like, as soon as I told her, way back when,
she called up my dad and she told him. And it's amazing that he's actually
very calm about it. Like, it's not like he doesn't think it's a big source of bother.
Especially seeing as at that time, I thought I was bi and my mom thought I
was bi. So my mom was like, yeah, she likes girls, but she also likes guys. So
my dad is like, okay, that's fine. You know, you know, as long as she likes, guys,
it's not a problem. Right?
So but, at the present moment, my mom has, you know, gotten used to it like
it's not like a big deal for her really. And it's my dad, he was, he was actually a
lot less, a lot less having problems with than my mom, like very much so. I-like
he was like, he doesn't really care, like, who do I sleep with or something like
that. As long as I make a family and stuff. So it was fine. Like it became like
very calm and stuff. But then I realized about, basically in November of 2006,
after having like sexual experiences with both girls and guys, like one after the
other pretty soon, you know, like concentrated. Like that, you know what, guys
don't do anything for me, not really. And, you know, it's girls that do. So I guess
I must be gay then, like, fully, you know, which was not such a big switch
because, like, I don't know, 80% towards girls and 100% towards girls? So not
such a big switch. So right now, I do identify as gay, because my, because you
know, of my experiences. And my, how do I say this? Like, pretty, pretty kind of
concrete definition. Sorry, concrete evidence that I don't like guys. And I do like
girls. Yeah, and I'm not going to say what because that would, that would be,
you know, the graphic part. So, let's see. That's about it. So I mean, did I cover
everything that you want me to?
�AZ
Yeah. Right. Okay, so, let's go back to let's, let's go back to when you first
started thinking about girls. Did, did you think that about gender, about
yourself in any gender or how you dressed?
MG
Well, I always, I never thought of myself as a guy. Like, I always knew I was
female. But I always dressed in very loose clothing and either unisex or even
guys clothing. But it was not because like I wanted to be butch, it's because I
thought I was kind of fat. Like I had, like a, like relatively big stomach. And I
wanted to hide that fat. And I was really like, uncomfortable with my body, like
a lot of body issues. And because of that, right? It's just that I suppose if other
girls are uncomfortable with their bodies, and they wear loose clothing, they
will usually be wearing feminine loose clothing, whereas I wore just like T shirts
and sweatshirts and something that a guy would wear with no problem.
Right? Why? Because I just felt more comfortable in those kind of clothing. So
that has been my style since basically, day one, like loose clothing that, that is
either unisex or when guys pants and guys, not guys shirts but like sweatshirts,
right and T shirts.
And that style it was how do I say this? It was not, it was not determined by my
orientation. But at the same time, if I were straight, like as such, and I wanted
to attract the attention of guys, then I probably would be wearing more
feminine clothes and tighter clothes, even on my stomach because I would
be like you know, you know, why not? That's like show something, instead of
showing nothing. But seeing as I was really into girls and I didn't care much
about guys, I was not interested in attracting their attention. So it was not
important for me to wear tight clothes that would attract their attention and
for me to like appear on their radar as potential you know, dating candidates
you know?
�AZ
Yeah, so as your self conception as a lesbian as it evolved, did your let's see,
how can I say this. Did your style change at all? Did you feel?
MG
Yes. Okay. My style like in high school was influenced by several factors. First
of all the fact that my parents didn't have a lot of money and I also didn't
want to take a lot of their money so I bought crap basically, like cheap crap
that looked bad. Brand name was something that happens for other people.
So cheap jeans from Kmart, guys jeans, like cheap sweatshirts for like five
bucks, things like that. So I look like a badly dressed guy basically. Right so, so
that, and I mean I could have bought cheap women, cheap girls clothes, you
know from things like pretty girl or you know, any, you know, like really cheap,
cheap, like, what's it called, even Kmart, cheap girls clothes. But I didn't feel
comfortable like showing my body.
So my style in high school was that cheap unisex clothes. Then when I went to
college, I started working and I started making some money. And I started
dressing a little bit better. Like also unisex clothes because I was just used to
that style and then because I still thought of myself as kind of always not
attractive, and unattractive. But more stylish mens clothes, like men's jeans
from Express for example, as opposed to Kmart or Old Navy, like more brand
name, you know, like nicer shirts instead of just crap. Right? Still kind of loose
and still something that a guy could wear also, but just nicer, nicer looking
and better fitting. Right. Ah, and that style continued to about. Well, basically,
up until now, and as I continued throughout college, I worked more, you know,
as I made more money. And I started just asking my mom for money to buy
more brand new things, like nicer things, but I still stuck to unisex slash male
clothes mostly, or at least kind of loose female clothes. Right, like nothing tight,
nothing that shows up anything. If you look at me in regular clothes, it would
be like, okay, the only way you can tell I'm female is you know, possibly boobs
�and above the neck, you know. And you know, the shirt could be female, but it
would be loose female. The pants, you know, male pants.
So the quality of my clothes improved, and the fit and the style improved. But
the overall, overall kind of approach has remained the same. And right now, I
have lost some weight recently. So now I feel like I could wear like tight
feminine clothes and look appropriate in them and stuff, appropriate means
good. But I just don't choose to because first of all, I'm so used to wearing
loose clothes, that I'm just comfortable in things that are losing and not tight
fitting. And second of all, I don't feel like having my ass for display, you know,
to all and sundry, it's just I don't know, like, I prefer this kind of approach,
especially the school that I go to, which is City College. It's a, it's mostly there's
a lot of like Hispanics and blacks, there. And the neighborhood itself is
Spanish. And for a white girl tall, white girl, tall, skinny white girl in tight clothes
to be walking around in Spanish Harlem, late at night, in tight clothes. Ahhh,
no, not happening. So like, like, I don't want to attract that kind of attention,
because they are, in that neighborhood, and that setting in my college
specifically, it's very easy for me, like, you know, just by virtue of being exotic
for them, to attract that kind of attention and I don't want that.
Also, I feel like I get more respect, if I wear nice clothes, clothes that are like
brand new, and you see they fit nice and stuff, but they're loose. Because in
our society, women are evaluated on their appearance first and everything
else second. So if my appearance, you know, my shape is taken out of the
equation, then it ceases to be a components available of evaluation for me.
And when people, when I meet new people, they see me, okay, female, but
they don't check out you know, the assets and so on. And they don't make
their judgment based on that, they make their judgment based on their
actual interaction with me in whatever capacity that occurs. So, in that mirror,
I feel like, I could represent myself not as a set of, you know, the stuff but as
�like a whole person, and males would be evaluating me as a whole person,
which is what I want.
And females also because girls also judge other girls by their appearance, not
in the sense oh, I want to like do her, but in the sense, you know, comparing to
themselves, I guess. So, in that- So I think that I'm definitely going to stick to
this like loose but now brand name and nice looking stuff. Because for me, it
was also in my chosen profession of engineer, there's not a lot of women. And
obviously. So and I feel like if you don't know, if you present yourself like in any
sexual manner to guys, then they will immediately see you like a something of
an object more or less, not entirely but to some degree, yes. And I don't want
to be seen as an object. Like at all, even like 1%. That's just not, at least not let's
say by just some random guys. You know, I mean, obviously, I want my
girlfriend to want me but not just some random guy in the street.
AZ
So do, you said that that you dress, or that you don't dress to please the male
gaze? Is there any sense in your clothing or how you dress and pleasing the
female gaze?
MG
I have no idea what pleases the female gaze. Well, I mean, okay, I know what
pleases me, but that's the same thing that pleases guys. So it's not, so it's not
like anything different, but I don't really know. I mean, my objective is not to
impress somebody with you know the beauty of my abs. But, like, you know, to
look presentable, clean cut, matching, like wearing quality clothes instead of
junk. It's like somebody, you know, that seems like smart and worthy of
respect. And I, and I think that, you know, my general clothes, they accomplish
that. And also like, lately, it's clothing has ceased to have very much
importance for me honestly, I do have feminine clothes, and I do wear them
when I go out and stuff. Like when I go into a club, I dress appropriately. Of
�course, like short skirts, tight shit, the whole nine yards. But that's because the
setting demands it. You know, when you go to a restaurant, you know, I would
also wear like a dress and stuff like that.
But in general, in general, like I don't think I dress to please the female gaze. I
don't try to please, the female gaze means you're like looking for a girlfriend,
which I'm not because I have one. And when I didn't have one, I don't know.
Like, it didn't occur to me that if I dress like sexy, I would attract girls as well as
guys, so it just doesn't work. I don't know if that's the case. So no, not really, I
don't think so. I dress to please me most importantly, and in a manner that is
in accordance with the setting that I'm in. Meaning business casual, when it's
necessary, to college, I can wear whatever I wants, but you know, I wear like,
like nice, like, sort of brand name stuff. To a restaurant, I would wear
something appropriate, and so on and so on. So my objective in terms of
dressing is not to look sexy and not to look hot. And I mean, looking attractive,
yes, but attractiveness in the sense that, you know, I look put together. And my
appearance is fitting the setting, and it's considered normal and appropriate.
And it's like, yeah, that girl dresses nicely, like nothing special. But you know,
not that.
AZ
So this is maybe a little repetitive. But do you consciously use any signs in the
way you dress? Or maybe even the way you walk, or talk, to let other people
know that you're gay? Is that all important to you?
MG
Letting other people know is not important to me, per se. Because to me,
because that has never I mean, while that is a big part of my identity, I've
never been, let's say political about it. Like, you know, I've never been an
activist or anything of the sort. Like if people asked me, I would say girlfriend
and so on, but I don't but I don't you know, have like rainbow flags on my bed
�or something. But on the other hand, my attitude, meaning the way I walk the
way I talk, the way I sit, like on a subway. Like if somebody like in the family
looks at me, they'll be like, yeah, she's probably gay. Yeah, because I really
don't have act that feminine. Like really. So, but on the other hand, if
somebody who looks at me who is not really straight and who doesn't have
much experience with gay people, they will, they will not really think gay, they
will be like no no, ithat girl is kind of I don't know nerdy or she's like kind of
eccentric or something like that. But they will not think gay, the reason they
will not think gay is because my hair is long. If my hair was short everybody
will think I'm a total dyke obviously because, for short when I say I don't mean
short as yours, I mean really really short because yours as you know still. Yes.
No, no, no, no short as in boy short Yeah, like that. Yes, I did have that
experience. I used to have like here like this long. This long. I'm showing like
two inches.
AZ
And um, did it, did people perceive and?
MG
Yeah like people mistook me for a guy like so. But actually, when I had my hair
that short, I dress really feminine to compensate so nobody would mistake
me for a guy because if I dress like the way I usually did with that short hair it
would be Sir, Sir, Sir all the time. But yeah, like, like one of my friends. She, she,
she figured out I was gay like, long before I told her because like, she knows a
lot of gay people and stuff like that. And if you want to know in any, any sort of
way, either you're friends with gay people, or you are yourself gay. You
definitely suspect like as soon as you look at me.
AZ
Right. So I'm interested in that you, you bought men's clothing, since you were
very young you said. Did you ever have the sense that that was transgressive?
�MG
Because for me it was not. It was not like clothing was not really divided into,
like allowed women's clothes and disallowed mens clothes, it was like, Okay,
I'm not going to wear men's women's pants for the only reason that they are
too tight for my fat ass. And what is like, what jeans would be fitting for me,
meaning what jeans would be loose enough that they would like not show
anything men's jeans, if there was a line of women's clothes that was, well, first
of all, cheap, and second of all loose, I will get those, that will not be a
problem. In fact, I would prefer them because, you know, made for women,
they would fit better. And with mens schools, there were a lot of issues with
comfort and the crotch being too low with that and stuff like that, like because
of the cut. And it's been, what's my objective was not to, to present myself as
gay or to present myself as Butch or to I don't know, rebel or anything like that.
It was simply that is that was the only option of loose pants available to me, or
just who that is available to women period, that women's pants are tight, like
straight up, or at least in my estimation, that is the style currently. And that
was the style when I was younger. And if I don't like the style, then what else
must they turn to? I guess I was turning to I don't know, straight leg men's
pants or something like that. Which is what I did.
AZ
Okay let’s see. Um, just looking around, you’re in New York city, so you see
women all the time and do you, you probably evaluate them and try to guess,
that’s one of my favorite games. Um, is there a style that seems lesbian to
you? Like an iconic style?
MG
Well, if a woman looks really butch, then very likely she is lesbian right. And
you know, well not only looking butch because you can have like, like some 45
year old lady with really short hair from the midwest who is you know, maybe
�kind of fat, so she’s wearing mens clothes because that’s the only thing that
will fit. And she’s married with three kids. I don’t mean like that. I mean, I mean,
like looks butch and acts butch and like kind of young and stuff. Obviously,
then that would be to me, not an iconic lesbian style because butches are I
think a minority if we take the lesbian population as a whole, they’re like one
minority of many other subdivisions. But, that is a distinguishably lesbian.
Because, any other style is like straight women wear it also. So it’s not like you
can be like, that is uniquely gay, besides the butch.
AZ
Okay….I guess that’s it, that’s all I have. Is there anything else you want to,
anything else you want to bring up?
MG
Hm, I’m probably not like the best interview subject, because my experiences
are not shaped by my orientation as much as a bunch of other things like
body issues and self esteem and socialization and blah blah blah. Uh, so, hm,
hopefully, I mean, ui don’t know if I’ll be a very accurate, how do I say this, like,
representative of the general population as a whole. Add to it the fact that I
like, am an immigrant with an immigrant mentality. So it’s, so you know, so, I
hope that you can find some American born lesbians who would like, with
normal social development and normal friendships and normal everything.
Whose clothing experiences were in fact shaped a lot by their orientation.
AZ
This is actually one of my questions, is how much really do lesbians care how
visible they are?
MG
Uh, well I cannot speak for all of them. And, okay, it’s like, it works the same
way as straight people. There’s a spectrum, obviously. On the one hand you
�have the activists, you know, who march in the Dyke March and rainbow flags
all over the place and so on. Obviously they care very much about visibility.
On the other hand, you have just regular people who don’t really care very
much. Right, or, who cannot be very open about it because of their job or
something like that. Right and obviously you have people who are entirely in
the closet. So, I don’t know if you can say as whole. Obviously, all lesbians
would like to see more lesbians being visible, like on TV or something like that.
Like, that’s what’s up. But, themselves being visible? Mmm, I think that uh, only
a minority is actively concerned with being visible I guess, like the ones with a
more activist mentality. Uh, I don’t have that activist mentality. I don’t mind it,
but I’m not going to go around Spanish Harlem with like a rainbow flag
because that’s just asking for trouble. My friend got into trouble like, doing
that, even though she keeps doing that. Yeah, so, you know what? I can add
one more thing. I can, if you, if you don’t mind. I can tell you what I think about
the way lesbians dress as compared to the way straight women dress?
AZ
Please.
MG
Right. Uh, well, for lesbians’ appearance, like their physical appearance. Is
definitely less important in my opinion than it is for straight women. Because
straight women are ought to get men, who are very visual and for whom the
physical, visual appearance is the make it or break it point, at least initially. So
they’re like, you know, we need to look nice, we need to bring everything to the
table and so on and so on. Uh, for lesbians, seeing as they’re trying to get
women, and women are not so visual, it’s more of a like, they make their
choice like in partner and fuckbuddy and whatever it is, based on the
interaction they have with that person and so on. There, the appearance
becomes less important. So, lesbians, they would, they would probably wear,
probably looser clothing or uh, less mainstream clothing, like more punk style
�or something like that. Uh, or more, you know, just not be as tremendously
concerned about presenting their assets, continuously to the entire world.
Because of the, their kind of target market, as it were.
AZ
And just the innate, uh… the innate way that women…
MG
Yeah, like that’s why gay guys are so appearance oriented, right, because
their target market it guys who are appearance oriented. So, you know, if you
wanna, if you want to like market yourself successfully to them, then you have
to uh, look good. And probably that's why straight guys are, can let
themselves go, you know and wear crap and have beer bellies and so on,
because they know women will not be evaluating them based on whether
they have a six pack or not, but based on what they say and what they do
and how much money they make, and so on and so on.
AZ
Okay, very good. Thank you.
�
http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/files/original/7f879f599dd03334b803bab3f53fc842.mp3
b8cf5f5e1e6219bd650262988ab32ff1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of New York Lesbian Style Oral History Project, 2007
Description
An account of the resource
The History of New York Lesbian Style oral history collection is an oral history project created by Alaina Zulli in 2007. Zulli was in graduate school for fashion history at NYU at the time and was working with the oral history collection as a student employee at Tamiment Library, which motivated her to document the changes in the lesbian experience in New York as expressed in fashion through the personal accounts of women who identify as a lesbian and who live in New York City.
This collection includes four audio recordings of interviews conducted by Alaina Zulli in 2007, which have been digitized from CD-R by students at Pratt Institute’s Library and Information Science Program. The original materials are held in off-site storage by the Lesbian Herstory Archives.
Transcriptions of the interviews are available, thanks to Amelia Leventhal, Marissa Moxley, and Sophia Santaniello .
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The information available on this site, including any text, data, artwork, video, audio, images or graphics may be protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws. Entities other than the Lesbian Herstory Archive may own copyright of the material. Material from the website may be used for non-profit or educational purposes. However, if copies are printed or displayed, copyright notice must be included. Except as provided above, you may not reproduce, republish, post, transmit or distribute any material from this website in any physical or digital form without the permission of the copyright owner.
For information regarding any further use of the materials contained on this site, please contact the Lesbian Herstory Archives:
LHEF, Inc. 484 14th Street Brooklyn, New York 11215
Telephone: 718-768-DYKE
Email: lesbianherstoryarchives@gmail.com
Sound
A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Alternative Title
An alternative name for the resource. The distinction between titles and alternative titles is application-specific.
HNYLS_Gorkhover.wav
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
History of New York Lesbian Style
Title
A name given to the resource
Lesbian Style Project: Mariya Gorkhover
Description
An account of the resource
Alaina Zulli interviews Mariya Gorkhover. They discuss her family, coming out to her parents, how her style has evolved with her sexuality, how she believes she is perceived, and how she would like to be perceived (based upon her looks).
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://herstories.prattinfoschool.nyc/omeka/rights-statement">Please see the Lesbian Herstory Archive's Rights Statement and the donor agreement form.</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
5/30/07
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
PT37M27S
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mpeg
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
CD-R
PBCore
PBCore is a metadata standard for audiovisual media developed by the public broadcasting community. See http://www.pbcore.org/documentation/
Interviewer
The person(s) conducting the interview. (For personal names use "LastName, FirstName MiddleName, Suffix").
Alaina Zulli
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed. (For personal names use "LastName, FirstName MiddleName, Suffix").
Maria Gorkhover
Coming Out
Fashion
Lesbian youth
Lesbians
Maria Gorkhover
Sexuality